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Putin's war

 
 
snood
 
  3  
Thu 24 Feb, 2022 06:36 pm
Former presidents’ reactions to invasion of Ukraine:

Clinton: “A brazen violation”
GWB: “The gravest security crisis on the European continent since World War II”
Obama: “A brazen attack on the people of Ukraine, in violation of international law”
Trump: “He’s taking over a country for $2 in sanctions, I say that’s pretty smart”
Mame
 
  2  
Thu 24 Feb, 2022 07:44 pm
@georgeob1,
George!! Are you seriously suggesting Trump was a good president? George! Seriously? I get that you're a Republican and you're welcome to it, but you must admit "being a Republican" doesn't mean what it used to. It's not only a fractured party, but it's totally screwed, even you must admit that. And Trump was not even loyal to the Republican party.

I always thought you were smarter than that... this is a huge disappointment to me.
Real Music
 
  3  
Thu 24 Feb, 2022 08:17 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I have to give Biden great marks here. By publishing intelligence data, he robbed Putin of surprise and got all our allies on board early (and the intelligence was remarkably accurate.) It looks like by the time Putin had all his ducks in a row, Biden had all of his lined up as well. Russian sanctions were ready to go, not a nebulous concept that needed endless debate. I doubt he will get any reward at home for it, but as an old cold warrior, I approve.

1. Agreed.
2. I also have to give Biden great marks here.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Thu 24 Feb, 2022 09:23 pm
https://www.businessinsider.com/zelensky-says-that-enemy-sabotage-groups-have-entered-kyiv-2022-2?amp

I don’t think Zelensky is long for this world. Putin vowed to behead the government and disarm the military.

Russian combatants are advancing on Kyiv and Zelensky refuses to leave. This is pretty damn horrifying. Putin has Chernobyl. Wtf is he planning to do with it?

So concerned that this thing is going to grow.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Thu 24 Feb, 2022 09:46 pm
@Mame,
Mame,

I merely answered an unsolicited question that you put to me. I responded to you thoughtfully and with care, and it appears to me more than you applied when (and if) you read my response.

My estimate of what would have been the situation now, had Trump remained in office (as you rather clearly indicated in your question) were all based on observable & verifiable facts in place when he left office. I merely assumed they would not have changed, as appears very likely.

I believe the conclusions I drew from these assumed conditions regarding our potential leverage in the current issues attending the Ukraine invasion, with Trump in office, were both sound and logical. Do you dispute them? If so I would like to know why and what better interpretation of them you may have.

Your prejudgments about my own views and estimates of the current prospects of our contending political parties, are, in my view, wildly inconsistent with evident facts. Nearly all of the poll data and political analysis available here indicates that it is the Democrats who are floundering and fractured in both their failed legislative programs and the fast-growing public reactions to our worsening economic, social, immigration and now political situations - much of it seen by many here as a direct consequence of their actions and policies in office..
The rapidly accumulating results of local elections for governors , school boards and even elected prosecuting attorneys in many states, from Virginia to California all confirm this - rather vividly in some cases. Current Poll data is consistent as well. Finally over 15% of all the Democrat Representatives in our Congress have already indicated their intent not to even seek reelection in the coming November elections.

Biden's bug out from Afghanistan, now followed by the weak, indeed somewhat deranged, rationalizations he has offered in defense of his "strategy" for dealing with the unfolding disaster in Ukraine have created increasingly evident anxiety, among the American electorate.

I'm sorry to have disappointed you, but I will survive it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 01:46 am
Western states are now blocking Russian assets in response to the Ukraine war.
Switzerland, however, is holding back on sanctions and could remain an important trading centre for Putin's business.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 03:38 am
@Lash,
Putin already has a **** to of nuclear weapons and power stations I doubt Chernobyl has anything he needs, its capture is more symbolic than anything else.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 04:12 am
@izzythepush,
Russia just wants to control the Chernobyl nuclear reactor, and besides that: the site happens to lie along the most direct paths to Kyiv.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 05:43 am
Thanks, NATO.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nato-leaves-black-sea-exposed-russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24/

**** the bed again.
izzythepush
 
  5  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 05:47 am
@Lash,
Yes, a nuclear war would have been so much better.

As always you're criticising NATO and the West while licking Putin's arse, just like Trump.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 05:54 am
Interesting history about contributing events and decisions:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2016/03/18/the-obama-doctrine-and-ukraine/amp/

Excerpt:

In an interview with Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic, President Obama laid out key elements of his approach to foreign policy. There is much in it with which one can agree. “Don’t do stupid s——” makes sense as an axiom of foreign policy—or of any policy, for that matter—as does taking deliberate and strategic decisions about when to engage American military power.

As regards the two-year-old conflict between Ukraine and Russia, the president said Ukraine is a core interest for Moscow, in a way that it is not for the United States. He noted that, since Ukraine does not belong to NATO, it is vulnerable to Russian military domination, and that “we have to be very clear about what our core interests are and what we are willing to go to war for.”

It is hard to dispute these points…except that the president set up a straw man. The United States could have done more to help Kyiv resist the Kremlin’s aggression without a war with Russia.

Why care about Ukraine?

There are critical reasons for Washington to support Ukraine. The Kremlin is pursuing a revisionist policy designed to undermine the post–Cold War order established in Europe. Vladimir Putin claims a right and duty to intervene to protect ethnic Russians and speakers wherever they live and regardless of their citizenship. He used that as a justification to invade Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. 25 percent of the populations of two NATO member states—Estonia and Latvia—are ethnic Russians. Recent Russian provocations in the Baltic states include kidnapping an Estonian counterintelligence official on the final day of the last NATO summit. Making Putin pay a heavy price for his aggression in Ukraine makes it less likely that he will commit further provocations in the Baltic states. Such provocations could lead to miscalculations and the war that President Obama wants to avoid.

Moreover, in 1994, the leaders of the United States, Britain and Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum, in which they committed to respect Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity and pledged not to use force against that country. That memorandum was key to Kyiv’s decision to give up nearly two thousand strategic nuclear warheads and the associated strategic missiles and bombers. This was a major victory for U.S. policy, and for nonproliferation. Moscow’s violation of this agreement is a strong disincentive for future nations to give up weapons of mass destruction. The Obama administration rarely mentions the Budapest Memorandum, but that memorandum answers the “why should we care?” question that Obama implied in his interview with Goldberg.

What should Washington do? It should keep providing Kyiv political support, and work with the European Union to offer additional financial assistance, provided that Ukraine accelerates reforms and anti-corruption measures. It should also provide additional military assistance.

On the last point, we are two of eight coauthors of a report issued early last year—“Preserving Ukraine’s Independence, Resisting Russian Aggression: What the United States and NATO Must Do”—that argued for providing Ukraine additional military assistance, including light antiarmor weapons. Those were intended to fill a gap when the Russian military was pouring tanks and other armored vehicles into the Donbas.

The administration rejected lethal military assistance. In our meetings last year with senior U.S. officials, it was apparent that the White House’s main concern was escalation: that the Russians might out-escalate the United States, or that U.S. leaders would find themselves on an escalation ladder that would end up with the Eighty-Second Airborne Division deploying to Donetsk.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 06:07 am
Post-Ukraine conquest speculation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/21/ukraine-invasion-putin-goals-what-expect/

Excerpt:

Let’s assume for a moment that Vladimir Putin succeeds in gaining full control of Ukraine, as he shows every intention of doing. What are the strategic and geopolitical consequences?
The first will be a new front line of conflict in Central Europe. Until now, Russian forces could deploy only as far as Ukraine’s eastern border, several hundred miles from Poland and other NATO countries to Ukraine’s west. When the Russians complete their operation, they will be able to station forces — land, air and missile — in bases in western Ukraine as well as Belarus, which has effectively become a Russian satrapy.
Russian forces will thus be arrayed along Poland’s entire 650-mile eastern border, as well as along the eastern borders of Slovakia and Hungary and the northern border of Romania. (Moldova will likely be brought under Russian control, too, when Russian troops are able to form a land bridge from Crimea to Moldova’s breakaway province of Transnistria.) Russia without Ukraine is, as former secretary of state Dean Acheson once said of the Soviet Union, “Upper Volta with rockets.” Russia with Ukraine is a different strategic animal entirely.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 07:01 am
@Lash,
Just to refresh your knowledge:

https://i.imgur.com/XltBqtVl.jpg
the Black Sea littoral states Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey are NATO members.
jcboy
 
  6  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:02 am
I'm very thankful we have Joe Biden as our President. If tRump had been successful in subverting our democratic election, we might have troops in Ukraine fighting WITH the Russians.
McGentrix
 
  -4  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Reporting by John Irish in Bucharest, Robin Emmott in Brussels and Jonathan Saul in London. Additional reporting by Sabine Siebold in Berlin, Tuvan Gumrukcu in Ankara, Phil Stewart in Washington. Editing by Cassell Bryan-Low


Hmmm... I don't see Lash's name in there, do you? You actually read the article, right?
Lash
 
  0  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:11 am
Can’t the world’s best hackers try to jam Russian military operations communications?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:12 am
@McGentrix,
So you're supporting Putin.

What a surprise.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -4  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yes, I know. What good did that do for Ukraine?

The article states that there was a NATO ship in the Black Sea shortly before Russian warships showed up. Did you read the article?
Lash
 
  -1  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:14 am
@jcboy,
Trump would have likely blundered into aiding Putin. I can’t believe his statements.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:24 am
@Lash,
What is Ukraine's relation to NATO?
Any idea about the territorial waters in the Black Sea?
Or why there's a Standing NATO Maritime Group 2?
 

 
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