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Putin's war

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 12:46 pm
@hightor,
That was my interpretation as well. I’ve heard reports that over the years, Putin has taken steps to make himself and Russia less reliant on the global community. We’ll see if it was effective pretty soon.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 01:00 pm
@hightor,
Putin was apparently already involved in preparations in 1986 for the event that the political system in the GDR collapsed. According to Stasi sources, they were also prepared for this.
In 1986, Stasi chief Erich Mielke had issued instructions that an elite unit, the
Offiziere im besonderen Einsatz ("officers on special assignment"), should remain in office even if the SED's reign came to a sudden end. Securing the future began with the Stasi starting to smuggle money to the West through a network of companies to accumulate secret assets so that such activities could continue after the collapse. Dresden is said to have been a "pivotal point" in this process. These transactions took place precisely at the time when Putin was the main liaison between the KGB and the Dresden Stasi. However, since the KGB was more effective in destroying its files than the Stasi, Putin's actual role in this action remains unclear.

There are rumours that Putin supported (with money?) the RAF ("red army fraction").

During his entire time in Dresden, from 1985 to 1990, Putin made only one public appearance. In October 1989, demonstrators stormed the Stasi headquarters. Their triumphal march led them towards the KGB residence. There the demonstrators met Major Putin.
Putin approached the group, up to the gate, and spoke in a fluent German, but with firm, definite words and unmistakably: 'The compound is very well guarded by my comrades. They have firearms. If unauthorised persons enter this compound, I have given the order to shoot.'

(I've spoken with one of the demonstrators. She said, Putin had a pistol in his hand and kind of aimed at them. This, however, isn't verified by others.)


0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  5  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 01:09 pm
@Lash,
Defense against what? A handful of troops in Poland? Finland, long neutral is now considering whether it should join NATO. Putin has completely reenergized an organization that was slowly falling apart without the need to counterbalance Russia. Suddenly it is needed again.
hightor
 
  2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 01:55 pm
@georgeob1,
somebody wrote:

The sanctions in force now are very far short of the "devastating" restrictions Biden so deceitfully promised, and it is becoming increasingly likely that nothing more is in the offing.


Quote:
US expected to impose sanctions on Putin as soon as Friday, sources tell CNN

(CNN)The US is planning to impose sanctions on Russian President Vladimir Putin as soon as Friday, according to two people familiar with the decision.

The Russian leader will become the highest-profile target in the effort to impose costs on the Russian economy and Putin's inner circle in the wake of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Additional Russian officials are likely to be included, one of the people said.

The European Union and United Kingdom announced they would introduce sanctions targeting Putin and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Friday.

President Joe Biden had said sanctioning Putin had been an option under consideration, telling CNN's Kaitlan Collins on Thursday it was "on the table."

This story is breaking and will be updated.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 02:05 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
Johnstone and Hedges have another theory: the US has expanded NATO, knowingly inciting Putin to defensive action.
This evening, in Putin’s bizarre speech, he appealed to Ukraine’s military to abandon its "drug-addicted, neo-Nazi" leaders.
"Once again I speak to the Ukrainian soldiers," he said, addressing his enemy. "Do not allow neo-Nazis and Banderites to use your children, your wives and the elderly as a human shield. Take power into your own hands. It seems that it will be easier for us to come to an agreement than with this gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis."

Dmitry Muratov, the editor of Novaya Gazeta, said he saw Putin as a man with "a historical map in his mind and a plan to use his military to achieve it."

Central to that map is Ukraine, which he has described as an artificial state. "Modern Ukraine was wholly and fully created by Russia," Putin said in some historical sleight-of-hand, "namely Bolshevik, communist Russia."

[With quotes from The Guardian and translated from Spiegel.]
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 02:32 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

somebody wrote:

The sanctions in force now are very far short of the "devastating" restrictions Biden so deceitfully promised, and it is becoming increasingly likely that nothing more is in the offing.





Quote:
The day before Russia invaded Ukraine, former President Donald J. Trump called the wartime strategy of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia “pretty smart.” His remarks were posted on YouTube, Twitter and the messaging app Telegram, where they were viewed more than 1.3 million times.

Right-wing commentators including Candace Owens, Stew Peters and Joe Oltmann also jumped into the fray online with posts that were favorable to Mr. Putin and that rationalized his actions against Ukraine. “I’ll stand on the side of Russia right now,” Mr. Oltmann, a conservative podcaster, said on his show this week.

And in Telegram groups like The Patriot Voice and Facebook groups including Texas for Donald Trump 2020, members criticized President Biden’s handling of the conflict and expressed support for Russia, with some saying they trusted Mr. Putin more than Mr. Biden.

The online conversations reflect how pro-Russia sentiment has increasingly penetrated Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, right-wing podcasts, messaging apps like Telegram and some conservative media. As Russia attacked Ukraine this week, those views spread, infusing the online discourse over the war with sympathy — and even approval — for the aggressor.

The positive Russia comments are an extension of the culture wars and grievance politics that have animated the right in the United States in the past few years. In some of these circles, Mr. Putin carries a strongman appeal, viewed as someone who gets his way and does not let political correctness stop him.

“Putin embodies the strength that Trump pretended to have,” said Emerson T. Brooking, a resident senior fellow for the Atlantic Council who studies digital platforms. “For these individuals, Putin’s actions aren’t a tragedy — they’re a fantasy fulfilled.”
NYT
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 03:24 pm
U.S. Officials Repeatedly Urged China to Help Avert War in Ukraine

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Over three months, senior Biden administration officials held half a dozen urgent meetings with top Chinese officials in which the Americans presented intelligence showing Russia’s troop buildup around Ukraine and beseeched the Chinese to tell Russia not to invade, according to U.S. officials.

Each time, the Chinese officials, including the foreign minister and the ambassador to the United States, rebuffed the Americans, saying they did not think an invasion was in the works. After one diplomatic exchange in December, U.S. officials got intelligence showing Beijing had shared the information with Moscow, telling the Russians that the United States was trying to sow discord — and that China would not try to impede Russian plans and actions, the officials said.

The previously unreported talks between U.S. and Chinese officials show how the Biden administration tried to use intelligence findings and diplomacy to persuade a superpower it views as a growing adversary to stop the invasion of Ukraine, and how that nation, led by President Xi Jinping, persistently sided with Russia even as the evidence of Moscow’s plans for a military offensive grew over the winter.

This account is based on interviews with senior administration officials with knowledge of the conversations who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the diplomacy. The Chinese Embassy did not return requests for comment.

China is Russia’s most powerful partner, and the two nations have been strengthening their bond for many years across diplomatic, economic and military realms. Xi and President Vladimir Putin of Russia, two autocrats with some shared ideas about global power, had met 37 times as national leaders before this year. If any world leader could make Putin think twice about invading Ukraine, it was Xi, went the thinking of some U.S. officials.

But the diplomatic efforts failed, and Putin began a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on Thursday morning after recognizing two Russia-backed insurgent enclaves in the country’s east as independent states.

Some U.S. officials say the ties between China and Russia appear stronger than at any time since the Cold War. The two now present themselves as an ideological front against the United States and its European and Asian allies, even as Putin carries out the invasion of Ukraine, whose sovereignty China has recognized for decades.

The growing alarm among U.S. and European officials at the alignment between China and Russia has reached a new peak with the Ukraine crisis, exactly 50 years to the week after President Richard Nixon made a historic trip to China to restart diplomatic relations to make common cause in counterbalancing the Soviet Union. For 40 years after that, the relationship between the United States and China grew stronger, especially as lucrative trade ties developed, but then frayed due to mutual suspicions, intensifying strategic competition and antithetical ideas about power and governance.

In the recent private talks on Ukraine, U.S. officials heard language from their Chinese counterparts that was consistent with harder lines the Chinese had been voicing in public, which showed that a more hostile attitude had become entrenched, according to the American accounts.

On Wednesday, after Putin ordered troops into eastern Ukraine but before its full invasion, Hua Chunying, a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, said at a news conference in Beijing that the United States was “the culprit of current tensions surrounding Ukraine.”

“On the Ukraine issue, lately the U.S. has been sending weapons to Ukraine, heightening tensions, creating panic and even hyping up the possibility of warfare,” she said. “If someone keeps pouring oil on the flame while accusing others of not doing their best to put out the fire, such kind of behavior is clearly irresponsible and immoral.”

She added: “When the U.S. drove five waves of NATO expansion eastward all the way to Russia’s doorstep and deployed advanced offensive strategic weapons in breach of its assurances to Russia, did it ever think about the consequences of pushing a big country to the wall?” She has refused to call Russia’s assault an “invasion” when pressed by foreign journalists.

Hua’s fiery anti-American remarks as Russia was moving to attack its neighbor stunned some current and former U.S. officials and China analysts in the United States. But the verbal grenades echo major points in the 5,000-word joint statement that China and Russia issued on Feb. 4 when Xi and Putin met at the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympic Games in Beijing. In that document, the two countries declared their partnership had “no limits” and that they intended to stand together against U.S.-led democratic nations. China also explicitly sided with Russia in the text to denounce enlargement of the NATO alliance.

Last Saturday, Wang Yi, the Chinese foreign minister, criticized NATO in a video talk at the Munich Security Conference. European leaders in turn accused China of working with Russia to overturn what they and the Americans say is a “rules-based international order.” Wang did say that Ukraine’s sovereignty should be “respected and safeguarded” — a reference to a foreign policy principle that Beijing often cites — but no Chinese officials have mentioned Ukraine in those terms since Russia’s full invasion began.

“They claim neutrality, they claim they stand on principle, but everything they say about the causes is anti-U.S., blaming NATO and adopting the Russian line,” said Evan Medeiros, a Georgetown University professor who was senior Asia director at the White House National Security Council in the Obama administration. “The question is: How sustainable is that as a posture? How much damage does it do to their ties with the U.S. and their ties with Europe?”

The Biden administration’s diplomatic outreach to China to try to avert war began after President Joe Biden and Xi held a video summit on Nov. 15. In the talk, the two leaders acknowledged challenges in the relationship between their nations, which is at its lowest point in decades, but agreed to try to cooperate on issues of common interest, including health security, climate change and nuclear weapons proliferation, White House officials said at the time.

After the meeting, U.S. officials decided that the Russian troop buildup around Ukraine presented the most immediate problem that China and the United States could try to defuse together. Some officials thought the outcome of the video summit indicated there was potential for an improvement in U.S.-China relations. Others were more skeptical, but thought it was important to leave no stone unturned in efforts to prevent Russia from attacking, one official said.

Days later, White House officials met with the ambassador, Qin Gang, at the Chinese Embassy. They told the ambassador what U.S. intelligence agencies had detected: a gradual encirclement of Ukraine by Russian forces, including armored units. William J. Burns, the CIA director, had flown to Moscow on Nov. 2 to confront the Russians with the same information, and on Nov. 17, U.S. intelligence officials shared their findings with NATO.

At the Chinese Embassy, Russia’s aggression was the first topic in a discussion that ran more than 1 1/2 hours. In addition to laying out the intelligence, the White House officials told the ambassador that the United States would impose tough sanctions on Russian companies, officials and businesspeople in the event of an invasion, going far beyond those announced by the Obama administration after Russia seized Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014.

The U.S. officials said the sanctions would also hurt China over time because of its commercial ties.

They also pointed out they knew how China had helped Russia evade some of the 2014 sanctions, and warned Beijing against any such future aid. And they argued that because China was widely seen as a partner of Russia, its global image could suffer if Putin invaded.

The message was clear: It would be in China’s interests to persuade Putin to stand down. But their entreaties went nowhere. Qin was skeptical and suspicious, a U.S. official said.

U.S. officials spoke with the ambassador about Russia at least three more times, both in the embassy and on the phone. Wendy R. Sherman, the deputy secretary of state, had a call with him. Qin continued to express skepticism and said Russia had legitimate security concerns in Europe.

The Americans also went higher on the diplomatic ladder: Secretary of State Antony Blinken spoke to Wang about the problem in late January and again on Monday, the same day Putin ordered the new troops into Russia-backed enclaves of Ukraine.

“The secretary underscored the need to preserve Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” said a State Department summary of the call that used the phrase that Chinese diplomats like to employ in signaling to other nations not to get involved in matters involving Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang and Hong Kong, all considered separatist problems by Beijing.

U.S. officials met with Qin in Washington again on Wednesday and heard the same rebuttals. Hours later, Putin declared war on Ukraine on television, and his military began pummeling the country with ballistic missiles as tanks rolled across the border.

source
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 04:11 pm
@engineer,
Following the theory you refer to, defense from Putin’s arch enemies having military sites, spies, and sympathizers in his backyard.

Lash
 
  1  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 04:15 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Yeah. Saw that. I think most military leaders at war either drop pamphlets or make speech appeals, trying to entice the other side to turn in their side.

I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard an example quite as ‘colorful’ as Putin’s, tho.
Not seeing a connection to my quote…
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 06:30 pm
@Lash,
Again, what sites? Poland? Spies can just hop a jet to Moscow, they don't need to smuggle themselves over a cold war border. Russia really didn't have any enemies until yesterday.
Lash
 
  -2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 07:18 pm
@engineer,
You have GOT to be kidding. Tell me you’re not trying to pretend that the US hasn’t been warring against Russia since 2016 specifically—and since the 60s generally.

In UKRAINE. And Turkey, and all the breakaway former Soviet countries. We’re talking about Putin’s perspective, right or wrong.
engineer
 
  5  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 07:57 pm
@Lash,
Yes, the US has not been warring against Russia, even when they invaded Crimea in 2014. I don't know why you would think otherwise. Since the end of the Cold War, Russia has been pretty low on the US radar. From 2016 to 2020, Putin could get Trump to shine his shoes on demand.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 08:30 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

The Ukrainian people are incredibly brave. I’ve heard so much audio and seen interviews that really compel respect.

One audio translated, paraphrased:
R: This is a Russian military ship. Propose your surrender.
U: Go **** yourself.

I don’t know how that confrontation ended.

It seems that they can’t possibly win, but they are all speaking only on the terms of repelling the aggressors.

A shout out to the multitude of Russians risking incarceration and violence to protest this war.


Since you missed the ending I'll tell you what happened. The Russians blew those Ukrainians into pieces. Ukraine's declared them heroes. The rest of the world will be watching as the Russians get increasingly more violent because that's how Putin rolls. Anyone thinking that Putin will be easily dissuaded is ignoring history.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -3  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 09:03 pm
@engineer,
So, it was a figment of my imagination that the loud chorus of American media daily blamed Trump’s election on Russia. They weren’t the national boogeyman 24/7 for the last 6 years.

Farmer man did it again today.

Pretty sure I can find a few quotes of you doing it too without looking too hard.
engineer
 
  3  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 09:20 pm
@Lash,
If you equate stories (well sourced) about Russian disinformation campaigns with us being at war with them, what do call it when tanks roll across the border? Super duper war? You might have a small point if the US was running disinformation campaigns in Russian social media, but calling out bad behavior is not war.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 10:17 pm
Based on all that hoo hah, he could easily be convinced the West was circling him. Doesn’t have to be true—just has to have gotten in his head.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Fri 25 Feb, 2022 11:22 pm
@Lash,
Oh dear, I hope you're not saying Putin is getting senile or weak.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 04:13 am
@glitterbag,
She's sorry the whole of America didn't lick Putin's arse like Trump did and she is doing right now.

He whole argument seems tobe that we are at fault for pointing out Putin's criminality.

She is upset that Putin's involvement in Trump's victory was recorded and now she wants everyone to keep quiet about the invasion.

Putin is certainly getting his money's worth.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 06:45 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Oh dear, I hope you're not saying Putin is getting senile or weak.

For anyone watching this bizarre exchange, one cannot even mention alternative narratives about Putin’s war on Ukraine without some simp accusing one of being on the Russian payroll or at least admiring Putin. Interesting times!

This is a good a place as any to paste the basic thesis of Chris Hedges and Caitlyn Johnstone’s opinions about what led to Putin’s war on Ukraine.

________________________________

“After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was a near universal understanding among political leaders that NATO expansion would be a foolish provocation against Russia. How naive we were to think the military-industrial complex would allow such sanity to prevail."

Imperial narrative managers have been falling all over themselves working to dismiss and discredit the abundantly evidenced idea that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was due largely to Moscow's fear of NATO expansion and the refusal of Washington and Kyiv to solidify a policy that Ukraine would not be added to the alliance.

________________________

After my own consideration on expansion vs leaving things as they were post-Soviet dissolution, I’m not sure this wouldn’t have happened either way. Sort of a damned if you don’t/ damned if you do situation.
hightor
 
  4  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 07:08 am
@Lash,
Quote:
In late 1996, the impression was allowed, or caused, to become prevalent that it had been somehow and somewhere decided to expand NATO up to Russia's borders. This despite the fact that no formal decision can be made before the alliance's next summit meeting, in June.

The timing of this revelation -- coinciding with the Presidential election and the pursuant changes in responsible personalities in Washington -- did not make it easy for the outsider to know how or where to insert a modest word of comment. Nor did the assurance given to the public that the decision, however preliminary, was irrevocable encourage outside opinion.

But something of the highest importance is at stake here. And perhaps it is not too late to advance a view that, I believe, is not only mine alone but is shared by a number of others with extensive and in most instances more recent experience in Russian matters. The view, bluntly stated, is that expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.

Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking. And, last but not least, it might make it much more difficult, if not impossible, to secure the Russian Duma's ratification of the Start II agreement and to achieve further reductions of nuclear weaponry.

It is, of course, unfortunate that Russia should be confronted with such a challenge at a time when its executive power is in a state of high uncertainty and near-paralysis. And it is doubly unfortunate considering the total lack of any necessity for this move. Why, with all the hopeful possibilities engendered by the end of the cold war, should East-West relations become centered on the question of who would be allied with whom and, by implication, against whom in some fanciful, totally unforeseeable and most improbable future military conflict?

I am aware, of course, that NATO is conducting talks with the Russian authorities in hopes of making the idea of expansion tolerable and palatable to Russia. One can, in the existing circumstances, only wish these efforts success. But anyone who gives serious attention to the Russian press cannot fail to note that neither the public nor the Government is waiting for the proposed expansion to occur before reacting to it.

Russians are little impressed with American assurances that it reflects no hostile intentions. They would see their prestige (always uppermost in the Russian mind) and their security interests as adversely affected. They would, of course, have no choice but to accept expansion as a military fait accompli. But they would continue to regard it as a rebuff by the West and would likely look elsewhere for guarantees of a secure and hopeful future for themselves.

It will obviously not be easy to change a decision already made or tacitly accepted by the alliance's 16 member countries. But there are a few intervening months before the decision is to be made final; perhaps this period can be used to alter the proposed expansion in ways that would mitigate the unhappy effects it is already having on Russian opinion and policy.


...George F. Kennan, “A Fateful Error,” New York Times, 05 Feb 1997

Ah, the luxury of hindsight. I've always respected the hell out of Kennan and I was disappointed, even back then, at the West's gleeful encircling of Russia. The thing is, the blame game doesn't help us – or Ukraine – now. At all.
 

 
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