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Secret FBI Memo—Send terrorists to Be Tortured

 
 
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2005 09:41 am
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 1,191 • Replies: 16
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2005 04:34 pm
Send them away so that they can give info. If they don't want to deal with out interrogators then let them deal with people who won't be as nice. Maybe word will spread to talk with us or risk it somewhere else!

Hasn't remdition been used before 9/11? If so Bush didn't sign anything that wasn't already being used.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2005 06:02 pm
Quote:
Send them away so that they can give info.


You are 'pro-torture', I suppose?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2005 06:58 pm
old europe wrote:
Quote:
Send them away so that they can give info.


You are 'pro-torture', I suppose?


To a certain extent. I don't want to see anyone killed, but I do want to see them talk and give useful information. I don't want arms cut off and I would like to see them unharmed but if they know something and don't talk then we need to persuade them to speak. If that entails some torture then so be it. We aren't playing with boy scouts here. These are people who want to kill us. I would rather save American lives with the use of torture then have Americans killed because we treated these people with kid gloves!
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 03:54 am
Baldimo wrote:
old europe wrote:
Quote:
Send them away so that they can give info.


You are 'pro-torture', I suppose?


To a certain extent. I don't want to see anyone killed, but I do want to see them talk and give useful information. I don't want arms cut off and I would like to see them unharmed but if they know something and don't talk then we need to persuade them to speak. If that entails some torture then so be it. We aren't playing with boy scouts here. These are people who want to kill us. I would rather save American lives with the use of torture then have Americans killed because we treated these people with kid gloves!


Then why can't the police in the US use torture with suspects?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 08:14 am
Baldimo wrote:
Send them away so that they can give info. If they don't want to deal with out interrogators then let them deal with people who won't be as nice. Maybe word will spread to talk with us or risk it somewhere else!

Hasn't remdition been used before 9/11? If so Bush didn't sign anything that wasn't already being used.

Rendition is clearly contrary to the law. Are you in favor of the government violating the law?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 09:28 am
goodfielder wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
old europe wrote:
Quote:
Send them away so that they can give info.


You are 'pro-torture', I suppose?


To a certain extent.

<snip>


Then why can't the police in the US use torture with suspects?


Because ordinary criminals are presumed innocent; they are, in fact, suspects.

Everyone in Gitmo is a terrorist, however. Every single last one of them.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 10:16 am
You support this kind of stuff, Baldimo?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1540558,00.html

Quote:
Suspect's tale of travel and torture

Alleged bomb plotter claims two and a half years of interrogation under US and UK supervision in 'ghost prisons' abroad

Stephen Grey and Ian Cobain
Tuesday August 2, 2005
The Guardian


A former London schoolboy accused of being a dedicated al-Qaida terrorist has given the first full account of the interrogation and alleged torture endured by so-called ghost detainees held at secret prisons around the world.
For two and a half years US authorities moved Benyam Mohammed around a series of prisons in Pakistan, Morocco and Afghanistan, before he was sent to Guantánamo Bay in September last year.

Mohammed, 26, who grew up in Notting Hill in west London, is alleged to be a key figure in terrorist plots intended to cause far greater loss of life than the suicide bombers of 7/7. One allegation, which he denies, is of planning to detonate a "dirty bomb" in a US city; another is that he and an accomplice planned to collapse a number of apartment blocks by renting ground-floor flats to seal, fill with gas from cooking appliances, and blow up with timed detonators.

In an statement given to his newly appointed lawyer, Mohammed has given an account of how he was tortured for more than two years after being questioned by US and British officials who he believes were from the FBI and MI6. As well as being beaten and subjected to loud music for long periods, he claims his genitals were sliced with scalpels.

He alleges that in Morocco he was shown photos of people he knew from a west London mosque, and was asked about information he was told was supplied by MI5. One interrogator, he says, was a woman who said she was Canadian.

Drawing on his notes, Mohammed's lawyer has compiled a 28-page diary of his torture. This has been declassified by the Pentagon, and extracts are published in the Guardian today.

Recruits to some groups connected to al-Qaida are thought to be instructed to make allegations of torture after capture, and most of Mohammed's claims cannot be independently verified. But his description of a prison near Rabat closely resembles the Temara torture centre identified in a report by the US-based Human Rights Watch last October.

Furthermore, this newspaper has obtained flight records showing executive jets operated by the CIA flew in and out of Morocco on July 22 2002 and January 22 2004, the dates he says he was taken to and from the country.

If true, his account adds weight to concerns that the US authorities are torturing by proxy. It also highlights the dilemma of British authorities when they seek information from detainees overseas who they know, or suspect, are tortured.

The lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith, says: "This is outsourcing of torture, plain and simple. America knows torture is wrong but gets others to do its unconscionable dirty work.

"It's clear from the evidence that UK officials knew about this rendition to Morocco before it happened. Our government's responsibility must be to actively prevent the torture of our residents."

Mohammed was born in Ethiopia and came to the UK aged 15 when his father sought asylum. After obtaining five GCSEs and an engineering diploma at the City of Westminster College in Paddington, he decided to stay in Britain when his father returned, and was given indefinite leave to remain. In his late teens he rediscovered Islam, prayed regularly at al-Manaar mosque in Notting Hill, and was a volunteer at its cultural centre. "He is remembered here as a very nice, quiet person, who never caused any trouble," says Abdulkarim Khalil, its director.

He enjoyed football, and was thought good enough for a semi-professional career. "He was a quiet kid, he seemed deep thinking, although that might have been because his language skills weren't great," says Tyrone Forbes, his trainer.

In June 2001 Mohammed left his bedsit off Golborne Road, Notting Hill, and travelled to Afghanistan, via Pakistan. He maintains he wanted to see whether it was "a good Islamic country or not". It appears likely that he spent time in a paramilitary training camp.

He returned to Pakistan sometime after 9/11, and remained at liberty until April 2002 - during which time, US authorities believe, he became involved in the dirty bomb and gas blast plots. His alleged accomplice, a Chicago-born convert to Islam, Jose Padilla, is detained in the US. Mohammed says interrogators repeatedly demanded he give evidence against him.

Mohammed was arrested in Karachi while trying to fly to Zurich - and thus entered a "ghost prison system" in which an unknown number of detainees are held at unregistered detention centres, and whose imprisonment is not admitted to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

His brother and sisters, who live in the US, say the FBI told them of his arrest in summer 2002, but they were unable to find out anything else until last February. In recent days the Bush administration is reported to have lobbied to block legislation, supported by some Republican senators, to prohibit the military engaging in "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment", and hiding prisoners from the Red Cross.

Mohammed alleges he was held at two prisons in Pakistan over three months, hung from leather straps, beaten, and threatened with a firearm by Pakistanis. In repeated questioning by men he believes were FBI agents, he was told he was to go to an Arab country because "the Pakistanis can't do exactly what we want them to".

The torture stopped after a visit by two bearded Britons; he believes they were MI6 officers. He says they told him he was to be tortured by Arabs. At one point, he says, they gave him a cup of tea and told him to take plenty of sugar because "where you're going you need a lot of sugar".

He says he was flown on what he believes was a US aircraft to Morocco, while shackled, blindfolded and wearing earphones. It was, he says, in a jail near Rabat that his real ordeal began. After a fortnight of questioningand intimidation, his captors tortured him with beatings and noise, on and off, for 18 months. He says his torturers used scalpels to make shallow, inch-long incisions on his chest and genitals.

Throughout, he was accused of being a senior al-Qaida terrorist and accomplice of Padilla. He denies these allegations, though he says that while tortured he would say whatever he thought his captors wanted. He signed a statement about the dirty bomb plot. At one point, he says, interrogators told him his GCSE grades, and asked about named staff at the housing association that owns his bedsit and about a man who taught him kickboxing in Notting Hill.

After 18 months, he says, he was flown to Afghanistan, escorted by masked US soldiers who were visibly shocked by his condition and took photos of his wounds.

During five months in a darkened cell in Kabul, he says he was kept chained, subjected to loud music, and questioned by Americans. Only after he was moved to Bagram air base was he shown to the Red Cross. Four months later he was flown to Guantánamo.

Mr Stafford Smith was first allowed to see him two months ago. He said there were marks of his injuries, and he is pressing the US to release the photos taken in Morocco and Afghanistan.

Asked about the allegations, the Foreign Office said the UK "unreservedly condemns the use of torture". After consulting with the Home Office, MI5, and MI6, a spokesman said: "The British government, including the security and intelligence services, never uses torture for any purpose. Nor would HMG instigate or condone the use of torture by third parties.

"Specific instructions are issued to all personnel of the UK security and intelligence services who are deployed to interview detainees, which include guidance on what to do if they considered that treatment in any way inappropriate."

The FBI, the US justice department, the Moroccan interior ministry and the Moroccan embassy in London did not return calls. The CIA declined to comment.


Here's a link to his account, which is too graphic to reprint here, seriously:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1540549,00.html

Remember that this is done in our name.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 07:33 pm
I have a few questions for you. If this all happened then how come he doesn't have any scares? 2nd if he was indeed flown around while blind folded and had things covering his ears how in the world does he know where he was?

What was he doing in Afghanistan before 9-11 and why was he visiting a terrorist training camp?

These are indeed good questions to be answered. I think this guy is full of crap. Indeed terrorists have been trained to tell tall tails about capture in order to get hatful people to believe them.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 07:43 pm
DrewDad wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
old europe wrote:
Quote:
Send them away so that they can give info.


You are 'pro-torture', I suppose?


To a certain extent.

<snip>


Then why can't the police in the US use torture with suspects?


Because ordinary criminals are presumed innocent; they are, in fact, suspects.

Everyone in Gitmo is a terrorist, however. Every single last one of them.


Who says so?

And if that's known why go through this charade of putting them through a half-arsed hearing?

Because the US govt needs to have some sort of legitimacy, if not for the world for it's own people. The US govt is trying to show that in this instance it's not a tyranny. Well it failed. These are the actions of a tryrant. As people say, you can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig. And this is one sort of hog.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 07:46 pm
Baldimo - I really hope that young bloke is lying his head off.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 09:24 pm
goodfielder wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
old europe wrote:
Quote:
Send them away so that they can give info.


You are 'pro-torture', I suppose?


To a certain extent.

<snip>


Then why can't the police in the US use torture with suspects?


Because ordinary criminals are presumed innocent; they are, in fact, suspects.

Everyone in Gitmo is a terrorist, however. Every single last one of them.


Who says so?

And if that's known why go through this charade of putting them through a half-arsed hearing?

Because the US govt needs to have some sort of legitimacy, if not for the world for it's own people. The US govt is trying to show that in this instance it's not a tyranny. Well it failed. These are the actions of a tryrant. As people say, you can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig. And this is one sort of hog.


So because we don't give murderous terrorists the benefit of the doubt we are a tyranny? How about you go talk to the people who were involved in bombings in Bali and ask them what they think. Ask those that had families killed in those attacks and see if they think murderous terrorists deserve the benefit of the doubt. I doubt they will see it your way.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 10:13 pm
Hmm - I know a number of people who had loved ones killed in those attacks.

Not one of them has wanted the kinds of human rights treaty breaching activities currently being undertaken by the USA - though I am sure some people do.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Aug, 2005 10:47 pm
Nice set of rhetorical flourishes ya got there Baldimo Very Happy

Got anything else?

Let me make it clear that I have no sympathy with either terrorists or criminals - to me they're all criminals anyway. But as criminals they should be subjected to due process - as would any other criminal.

Now, about Afghanistan. The West invaded. Took prisoners. Call me close-minded if you wish but the reasoning of the US govt that the Geneva Conventions don't apply to those defending Afghanistan from an invasion is a legal fiction. They are Prisoners of War and should have been treated as such.

Now, why was John Walker Lindh - fighting for the Afghanistan government - dealt with differently from David Hicks, fighting for the Afghanistan government?

Both should have been treated as Prisoners of War as they were fighting for a government defending itself from an invasion. They were not terrorists as they were not conducting criminal activities within the US (or anywhere else for that matter).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 11:04 am
The memos, btw, can be read online here.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 04:38 pm
Documents Tell of Brutal Improvisation by GIs



Interrogated General's Sleeping-Bag Death, CIA's Use of Secret Iraqi Squad Are Among Details

Quote:
By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 3, 2005; Page A01



Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush was being stubborn with his American captors, and a series of intense beatings and creative interrogation tactics were not enough to break his will. On the morning of Nov. 26, 2003, a U.S. Army interrogator and a military guard grabbed a green sleeping bag, stuffed Mowhoush inside, wrapped him in an electrical cord, laid him on the floor and began to go to work. Again.

It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents.

The sleeping bag was the idea of a soldier who remembered how his older brother used to force him into one, and how scared and vulnerable it made him feel. Senior officers in charge of the facility near the Syrian border believed that such "claustrophobic techniques" were approved ways to gain information from detainees, part of what military regulations refer to as a "fear up" tactic, according to military court documents.

The circumstances that led up to Mowhoush's death paint a vivid example of how the pressure to produce intelligence for anti-terrorism efforts and the war in Iraq led U.S. military interrogators to improvise and develop abusive measures, not just at Abu Ghraib but in detention centers elsewhere in Iraq, in Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Mowhoush's ordeal in Qaim, over 16 days in November 2003, also reflects U.S. government secrecy surrounding some abuse cases and gives a glimpse into a covert CIA unit that was set up to foment rebellion before the war and took part in some interrogations during the insurgency.

The sleeping-bag interrogation and beatings were taking place in Qaim about the same time that soldiers at Abu Ghraib, outside Baghdad, were using dogs to intimidate detainees, putting women's underwear on their heads, forcing them to strip in front of female soldiers and attaching at least one to a leash. It was a time when U.S. interrogators were coming up with their own tactics to get detainees to talk, many of which they considered logical interpretations of broad-brush categories in the Army Field Manual, with labels such as "fear up" or "pride and ego down" or "futility."

Other tactics, such as some of those seen at Abu Ghraib, had been approved for one detainee at Guantanamo Bay and found their way to Iraq. Still others have been linked to official Pentagon guidance on specific techniques, such as the use of dogs.

Two Army soldiers with the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Fort Carson, Colo., are charged with killing Mowhoush with the sleeping-bag technique, and his death has been the subject of partially open court proceedings at the base in Colorado Springs. Two other soldiers alleged to have participated face potential nonjudicial punishment. Some details of the incident have been released and were previously reported. But an examination of numerous classified documents gathered during the criminal investigation into Mowhoush's death, and interviews with Defense Department officials and current and former intelligence officials, present a fuller picture of what happened and outline the role played in his interrogation by the CIA, its Iraqi paramilitaries and Special Forces soldiers.

Determining the details of the general's demise has been difficult because the circumstances are listed as "classified" on his official autopsy, court records have been censored to hide the CIA's involvement in his questioning, and reporters have been removed from a Fort Carson courtroom when testimony relating to the CIA has surfaced.

Despite Army investigators' concerns that the CIA and Special Forces soldiers also were involved in serious abuse leading up to Mowhoush's death, the investigators reported they did not have the authority to fully look into their actions. The CIA inspector general's office has launched an investigation of at least one CIA operative who identified himself to soldiers only as "Brian." The CIA declined to comment on the matter, as did an Army spokesman, citing the ongoing criminal cases.

Although Mowhoush's death certificate lists his cause of death as "asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression," the Dec. 2, 2003, autopsy, quoted in classified documents and released with redactions, showed that Mowhoush had "contusions and abrasions with pattern impressions" over much of his body, and six fractured ribs. Investigators believed a "long straight-edge instrument" was used on Mowhoush, as well as an "object like the end of an M-16" rifle.

"Although the investigation indicates the death was directly related to the non-standard interrogation methods employed on 26 NOV, the circumstances surrounding the death are further complicated due to Mowhoush being interrogated and reportedly beaten by members of a Special Forces team and other government agency (OGA) employees two days earlier," said a secret Army memo dated May 10, 2004.

More at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-adv/advertisers/popunders/pressure_white.html


Baldimo do you approve of this type of interrogation?

Sure they will hold a military trial and several low ranking scapegoats will end up in prison. But the true culprit or culprits will exit unscathed. This type of goings on was sanctioned at the highest levels of Government. The present atty.general of the US was up to his arm pits in the decision that allowed the behavior.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2005 04:43 pm
Sorry wrong link posted .
Correction
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html?referrer=email&referrer=email
0 Replies
 
 

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