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The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

 
 
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:16 pm
Please don't argue about whether covid is real, or who is stupid on this thread. There are other threads for that. I believe that Covid is real, and that the vaccine is safe and effective. But that isn't material to this discussion.

My question, what rights to do people who choose not to be vaccinated have? Should they be forced to be vaccinated? Should they be penalized? Should they be allowed to occupy public spaces with masks or whatever other precautions are allowed.

In my opinion, people should have broad rights to refuse medical treatments. This is especially true of people who aren't infected with anything (supporting quarantine for people infected with covid, or tuberculosis is another issue).

Under what circumstances should someone be penalized for refusing a vaccine?
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Type: Question • Score: 6 • Views: 1,233 • Replies: 115

 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:47 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Please don't argue about whether covid is real, or who is stupid on this thread. There are other threads for that. I believe that Covid is real, and that the vaccine is safe and effective. But that isn't material to this discussion.

My question, what rights to do people who choose not to be vaccinated have? Should they be forced to be vaccinated? Should they be penalized? Should they be allowed to occupy public spaces with masks or whatever other precautions are allowed.

In my opinion, people should have broad rights to refuse medical treatments. This is especially true of people who aren't infected with anything (supporting quarantine for people infected with covid, or tuberculosis is another issue).


Under what circumstances should someone be penalized for refusing a vaccine?


Anyone who refuses to be vaccinated other than for certified medical reasons...should be penalized. The requirement to be vaccinated is not ONLY to protect the individual being vaccinated, but also to protect the citizenry...and humanity.

I'd suggest requiring them to sit in a corner with a dunce cap on until they decide to get the vaccination.

Or something even more intrusive. I would not be opposed to prison time until they agree to be vaccinated.

coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:59 pm
There also needs to be free and easy access to vaccinations.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 04:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Do you feel this way about any other medical procedures. You are auggesting that society can force people into a medical procedure against their will.

People having babies they can't afford hurt both themselves and society.

Do you support forced sterilization?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 04:23 pm
@maxdancona,
Do you support allow parents not to have their children protected for generations by vaccines before entering schools?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 04:33 pm
@maxdancona,
we cant compare rights to refuse vaccines or other treatments for non communicable diseases with those that clearly pose a great risk to the population at large. because we havent reached herd immunity by the minimum percentage needed, that presents a risk to the rest especially since this virus can mutate into highly transmissible forms which may, may, bypass the vaccines abilities to protect.

it seems the rights of the majority comes first in matters of public health. as was said many times, "our constitution is not a suicide pact"
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 04:44 pm
@maxdancona,
We had two men die over here a few weeks ago, one was fully vaccinated the other wasn't, both were 90 years old, and both are recorded as having died from Corona virus. We also had a 14 years old boy in hospital with Cryptococcal meningitis, his death is also recorded as corona virus.

This Corona virus has saved so many people from dying of heart attacks, ambolisms, the common flue, and many, many other diseases, but mainly those associated with old age.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 06:24 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


Do you feel this way about any other medical procedures.


Yes, I do.

Quote:
You are auggesting that society can force people into a medical procedure against their will.


I am suggesting that society should be able to force people to do so AGAINST THEIR WILL...under certain circumstances.

This happens to be one of them.

Quote:
People having babies they can't afford hurt both themselves and society.


Correct.

Quote:
Do you support forced sterilization?


No, I do not.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 06:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Ok, so you believe that there are circumstances where the State can force people undergo medical procedures against their will.

Can you specify which circumstances qualify? Is this an arbitrary standard?

What principle makes forced vaccination permissible while forced sterilization is not?
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 07:46 pm
@maxdancona,
Forced to be injected with experimental drugs. Humans used as Guinea pigs and Laboratory rats.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:28 pm
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

Forced to be injected with experimental drugs. Humans used as Guinea pigs and Laboratory rats.


You might not understand me well. I don't agree with you.

I think you are batshit crazy. I am defending your right to be crazy, and your right to make medical decisions even though you are ceazy.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:52 pm
@maxdancona,
speaking for the usa, do you see any of the bill of rights that speak of this?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:57 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

speaking for the usa, do you see any of the bill of rights that speak of this?


The arguments used in the Roe V. Wade decision would apply in the same way to the right to not be vaccinated. Whether I choose to be vaccinated is my private personal medical decision.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:58 pm
@maxdancona,
speaking for the usa, do you see any of the bill of rights that speak of this " right" ?.
Th closest Id see is the free expression of religion clause BUT, were the US to fold and let everyone practice vis a vis "their religion by refusing vaccination in a health crisis", to me, granting this as a conditionally based right , constitutes a violation of the establishment clause.
I think the first Amenment i the only one that even gets close to such a :RIGHT"
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:00 pm
@farmerman,
Do you agree with the Roe V Wade decision which ensured the legal right for a woman to make private medical decisions about her own body?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:07 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The arguments used in the Roe V. Wade

I disagree on the application of these arguments per se.
Roe v Wade provides the right to "Terminate a pregnancy" only of an individual . Its not to CREATE rights for a "class" to violate the health and safety of a majority.

I think Wisconsin v YODER would gt closer to this issue (as far as precedent).
I have no skills in Constitutional law but Ive read several decsisons and opinion summmaris of both sides. So I may be spakin out of my ass but Im just opining hre. (As are you I believe)

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:13 pm
@maxdancona,
This is ntirely ifferent than Roe v Wade and Yoder so Im leaning on an issue for the Health an safety (More like seat belt laws), theres no RIGHTS implicit or explicit
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:14 pm
@farmerman,
Roe V. Wade was decided primarily on the issue of privacy

In order for the government to enforce laws mandating vaccination, it is going to have to keep lists of US citizens private medical records. Any vaccination mandate will necessarily violate the privacy of citizens. It means the government will be looking over the shoulder of a patient receiving medical care.

This is not only a violation of the constitutional protection of privacy found in the Roe V. Wade decision, it is also a violation of medical ethics.

Abortion and Vaccinations are medical procedures protected by patient confidenciality and with a legal expectation of privacy. Seat belts are not.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:31 pm
@maxdancona,
the ninth and 14th amendments were cause, but only in first trimester . So you are making irrelevant conditions of analogy I believe. Lemme go look up Yoder bcause thats a CLASS basis whereas Roe is an individual s defined right (That really extends only to the end of the first trimester).
Im not sure that privacy statutes are fully rights because they all have exclusionary language .

My interest is, "If its a right" as you say, how comes specific agencies and services can deny continued mployment based on NOT getting vaccinated??
I see lots of street marching and opinions but Ive not really seen anything even approaching a Federal Case or USSC.

hen I posted my thoughts on the 1st Amendment, I was saying that its (IMHO) more of a valid argument using the first amendment , not 9 and 14


farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:35 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
n order for the government to enforce laws mandating vaccination, it is going to have to keep lists of US citizens private medical records. Any vaccination mandate will necessarily violate the privacy of citizens. It means the government will be looking over the shoulder of a patient receiving medical care


I think youre extending it a bit out of context here.We havent been keeping all encompassing records of the vaccinations to date. I see corona vax as an pidemic cum pandemic that, without further controls, is turning into a synemic.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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