The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

@MontereyJack,

Let's ask this question...

If there is research from a reputable source that mandatory vaccines would lead to fewer people being vaccinated... would you still support mandatory vaccines?

Is about doing the best for the greatest number of people, or is this an argument on principle.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Right on, frank.

Thank you, Edgar.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Come on Frank.

This is the pandemic we were all worried about. It doesn't get worse that this. The movies you have seen where viruses turn all of humanity into flesh eating zombies or that a single man is left on a raft searching for dry land... these are science fiction

You just do not get it, Max, and that is okay.

Enjoy your denial. I hope a majority of others realize the danger of that kind of denial.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are arguing that we should give up our right to privacy in order to gain security.

I am not sure how far you are wiling to take this... but that is the argument you are making.

Our "right to privacy" is a fiction at this time. Whatever privacy you think you have is ephemeral at the best...and totally non-existent at the most.

In any case, in order for society and civilization to function...some privacy and some individual rights must be given up...OR TAKEN AWAY.

You are not going to have a private or individual right to drive your car as fast as you want wherever you want; you are not going to take a dump in the middle of a restaurant dining room; you are not going to build a nuclear reactor in your residential backyard...and you are not going to remain unvaccinated during a pandemic of this kind except for VERY special reasons.

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@Frank Apisa,

You always seem to argue extremes, Frank.

My right to privacy isn't absolute, especially in the age of the internet. But neither is it "fiction".

The police can't search my house without a warrant. My employer can't act about my AIDS status or check my medical records for anything. And I have pretty broad HIPAA protections.

The truth is somewhere in between the two extremes.

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@Frank Apisa,

Are you freaked out about the potential of a gamma ray burst? Or of the Yellowstone Caldera exploding?

If you are constantly afraid of highly unlikely (yet admittedly extremely bad) events, you will have trouble living your life (or making sane decisions).

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Are you freaked out about the potential of a gamma ray burst? Or of the Yellowstone Caldera exploding?

No...and...No.

Quote:

If you are constantly afraid of highly unlikely (yet admittedly extremely bad) events, you will have trouble living your life (or making sane decisions).

I am not an especially fear filled person. I happen to be one of the luckiest people ever...and most things seem to break very nicely for me.

What the hell are you talking about?

I think the pandemic is serious enough to be a LOT more pro-active about things like face masks and vaccinations.

You apparently do not.

We disagree.

The world will not end because we disagree.

In fact, I am hopeful you will finally come to your senses...and agree with my assessment of things.

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@maxdancona,

both the suoervolcano and a gamma burdt are examples of things humans have no control over , corona virus is not one of thos. Its the very acts of human complacency that cause it to worsen in consequences.

Knoing what we do, you are still among the few dunderheads who support their " right" to kill me by their omission.

wow , what incredible arrogance .

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@Frank Apisa,

Just to be clear.

I agree with you about the importance of masks vaccination. I agree with you that both of these are important parts of responding to covid-19.

Where we disagree is whether we should force people who don't agree to get a vaccination anyway. The only thing we are disagreeing about is whether we should force people into a medical procedure that they don't want.

If it helps... I do support efforts to get more people vaccinated (other than forcing people). These would include public education campaigns and messaging.

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@maxdancona,

Let me make this comparison.

1. I don't want people to use heroin. I don't believe it is good for people to use heroin.

2. I support public health campaigns and messaging to keep people from using heroin or to help people quit.

3. I don't support the use of force to stop people from using heroin. I don't support punishing them, or using threats or keeping them out of housing or any other coercion.

This is similar to my position on vaccinations.

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@farmerman,

You are being a bit over-dramatic there, Farmerman.

If you have been vaccinated and are following social distancing, your chance of being killed by dunderheads is pretty damn low.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Just to be clear.

I agree with you about the importance of masks vaccination. I agree with you that both of these are important parts of responding to covid-19.

Where we disagree is whether we should force people who don't agree to get a vaccination anyway. The only thing we are disagreeing about is whether we should force people into a medical procedure that they don't want.

If it helps... I do support efforts to get more people vaccinated (other than forcing people). These would include public education campaigns and messaging.

Okay, Max, let me be clear also.

I think this pandemic is dangerous enough to require that as many people as possible get vaccinated...and mask...and maintain social distancing. If people will not do that voluntarily, I think it should be mandated.

We MAY have the luxury of trying other things first. Having vaccination passports, for instance...so that anyone not producing a valid VP should not be able to get into any stores, theaters, restaurants, or other social venues. If that doesn't work...we can get more serious.

My question for you would be...just how serious would things have to get where you would say that mandatory vaccinations would be required. Would it take one third of the population of the planet wiped-out for it to be serious enough...one half...three quarters. Where would you draw the line?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Let me make this comparison.

1. I don't want people to use heroin. I don't believe it is good for people to use heroin.

2. I support public health campaigns and messaging to keep people from using heroin or to help people quit.

3. I don't support the use of force to stop people from using heroin. I don't support punishing them, or using threats or keeping them out of housing or any other coercion.

This is similar to my position on vaccinations.

Max...the impact on the rest of humanity of someone using heroin is almost negligible when compared with the impact of a severe disease.

If the idiot Trump had not taken the position he did and caused his moron followers to adopt the position...we would be in a much better place. But I can understand THEM justifying the unjustifiable.

But YOU?

Why, Max?

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@Frank Apisa,

I accept your point.

In an extreme disaster, sometimes human rights need to be sacrificed. The more extreme the disaster, the more I would be willing to give up basic civil rights. That is the point of martial law.

There is a balance to be found here.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I accept your point.

In an extreme disaster, sometimes human rights need to be sacrificed. The more extreme the disaster, the more I would be willing to give up basic civil rights. That is the point of martial law.

There is a balance to be found here.

Thank you, Max.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

If you have been vaccinated and are following social distancing, your chance of being killed by dunderheads is pretty damn low.

ok so its you i elect to be the statistic. I thought you were the one who posted that you onky believe what science says.
Notice how science is somewhat serpentine?

PS, comparing a supervolcano and gamma bursts v corona , is more dramatic than you accuse of me.

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@farmerman,

You are being silly, Farmerman.

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@maxdancona,

Sorry you do not allow fools to be part of spreading a deadly disease to the rest of us including young children.

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@BillRM,

I think you are overreacting.

Yes, Covid kills up to 4% of people who contract it (actually the case fatality rate is well under 4% in the US and most parts of the world). The fatality rate for "young children" is exceedingly small (0.003% or 3 deaths out of 100,000 cases). Extremism doesn't help (even if you think it is warranted). Ranting about "young children" when young children aren't dying in any significant amount is a little silly.

Public health policy should be first fact-based. And it should also look at all of the pros and cons to develop a rational, balanced policy. Decisions made out of a hysterical panic aren't generally very wise.

The "War on Drugs" is a good example of how extremism often backfires. If you are planning to put people who don't want a vaccine in jail, you might just find that fewer people get vaccinated, and the unvaccinated are harder to find.

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@maxdancona,

Your lack of knowledge of system gentics is wonderfully naive. During the Spanish Flu synemic, the real ffcts to developing syctokine storms only happened after a year or so of mutation. The "flu" became more dedly with the "C stoms" fighting young persons own immunosystem.
Also the flu misdiagnose many elderly as succumbing to normal easonal "colds and other agues"
We now have a waaay btter understanding of the diseases flow and can really nip it arly. Weve failed much to the responsibility of this idiotic "Rights to die" issue.
If you wish to plat Roullette, b my guest, why must you presume the paths of others who dont wish to follow your path of submission?

your arguments are specious , becaue your right must not intrfere with mine . I have an equal right to the big "3" of our preamble.

Your qrgument is as speicious as trumps;s , where he stated that the
counter-disease responsibilities lay with the states.

1 Reply

The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

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