The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

@maxdancona,

Quote:

You might not understand me well. I don't agree with you.

I think you are batshit crazy. I am defending your right to be crazy, and your right to make medical decisions even though you are ceazy.

Oh, I humbly beg your forgiveness oh mighty one. Perhaps you can reveal to everyone what long term experiments have been done on these drugs?

I await your response.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

the mRNA basis for many of these drugs ha ben going on since the 90's . University of Pennsylvania an CAmbridge U of UK were the two primries to define and work with mRNA on th spike cheeseball structure of th COVID genera and that was begun almost 15 years ago.

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@farmerman,

Which explains how the covid vaccines were developed so quickly.

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@edgarblythe,

we knew more than what the news reported. many newspapers have copy editors whose last jobs were proofreading M&M's

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@farmerman,

And even after having the complete vaccination, people have still died from severe side effects caused by the drugs, and from the Corona Virus itself, revealing that the vaccination is not always effective.

And those side effects from which people have died, are only the short term side effects.

Are you for or against capital punishment? Do you believe that the death of one innocent person cannot Justify the law of the state that demands Capital Punishment?

Or do you accept that the death of the occasional innocent person, is justified in the attempt to clean up the murders in that state?

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@farmerman,

1. I am not arguing that this is a 1st amendment issue. I don't think it is.

2. The main issue is the right of individuals to refuse a medical treatment (especially when they are not known to be sick).

3. My employer had me take a drug test as condition of employment. The government can not force me to take a drug test. An employer can demand a vaccination as a condition of employment. The doesn't mean that the government has the right to force a vaccination (or to violate your privacy if you haven't had a vaccination).

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I will let farmerman answer the question you directed at him. I just came back to say, I support the vaccines, but still feel we should have had total lockdown for a period and subsequent lockdowns as needed. Because the virus is never going away until we do something like that. The vaccine does not totally make one safe, but a vaccinated person has a high percentage of survival compared to the unvaxed.

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@The Anointed,

You can post whatever you want. But this is the wrong place for this argument. There are lots of threads where you can argue that covid vaccines aren't safe and effective.

Maybe you can answer the question of this thread.

If you believed that the vaccines were safe and effective against a global pandemic... would you support the effort to force people to get vaccinated?

This isn't another "is covid real" thread" It is specifically asking about the right of the government to force people to take a medical treatment once it has been proven safe and effective against a deadly disease.

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@maxdancona,

But that is a belief. You're admitting that what you want to be true or fear is true, is really the case.

Read Terry Goodkind sometime. What is the Wizard's First Rule?

Quote:

People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

Given this, we must ask ourselves, "What is the motivation for selling people on what is potentially a lie?" When we look at who is doing the selling, the answer becomes so obvious that the right to not get vaccinated, or more directly "the right to bodily autonomy" (which is already protected under the constitution under several laws: https://www.justia.com/constitutional-law/docs/privacy-rights/ ) is of utmost importance. For you see, there are three parties who want to sell us on vaccines.

1. Politicians : who aim to use it as an instrument of control, both by keeping the population in perpetual hysteria by using it to increase regulation, and to possibly rig a few elections in their favor (mail-ins are easier to fraud because there is no in-person ID check of voters)
2. Medical salesmen: who make money of sales of medicine, regardless of whether it even works or is in fact dangerous. If 100% of the population takes the vaccine, supply and demand says that demand is 100% so they can charge hefty sums and
3. Population control nutters: Perhaps most unsettling is the endorsement of people like Bill Gates who are actually on record saying some things about overpopulation. This combined with some places offering it for free tells you that this is not as much about money as it is trying to kill you dead. There is a monument in Georgia that says something creepy AF about reducing human population to under 500 million or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
(The monument in question)

When I have at least some suspicion that those devising the vaccines actively want to kill me, I think I'll take my chances without it. When governments want to use this as a tool to oppress and control me, likewise no thanks. And I think that it's absolutely ghoulish for medical companies to rush through the testing phase (they did, meaning we are the guinea pigs) in order to try to make a profit before people realize there is nothing to be afraid of. Because once people stop wearing masks, other people figure out things, and the game is over.

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@The Anointed,

The delta variant is slmeting ver 90
% of new cases. Cases are spiking in at least 47 of the 50 states. Beds and ventilators are running desperately short everywhere. The new cases are almost entirely among the unvaccinated. those vaccinated who get sick do not seem to get anywhere near as sick ands do nort seem to die from it. and there are very very few vaccinated people coming down wit it anwa. As one delta variant victim put it in his last Tweet, shortly before he died, >"I should have gotten the damnede vaccine." Take heed.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

If you believed that the vaccines were safe and effective against a global pandemic... would you support the effort to force people to get vaccinated?

And that answer is a resounding no. When people are unable to speak for themselves, they become little more than beasts. Insects have no say in getting squashed. Even our dear pets , we kill off with lethal injection without any sort of living will stating that "yes I would like to live as long as possible and not be fed poison, even if I am in pain." But animals have no right to speak for themselves. So as someone who can, to be treated like I can't is to be under the thumb of a govenment that treats me like a dog. Btw...

https://scx2.b-cdn.net/gfx/news/hires/2020/3-covid19.jpg

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/d7a8ee55-0d45-4f5d-a495-5e70e03ad010_1.041cec9e56601ce7f3efffada1c41b0f.jpeg

A muzzle to keep you from barking, because we think you're a bad dog. At least the real dogs get to breathe through their noses.

http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/fotos/covid-muzzle2.jpg

Someone else made the observation.

Quote:

I asked one nurse if I could ask a few questions that I just needed answers for. First, ‘Do masks do anything to stop a virus?” She looked at me shocked, then said “no, they don’t do anything, the N95 does stop a percentage of a virus when you wear one, but overall they don’t do a thing”.

So I asked why are there so many mandates then? We are we being bombarded with wearing a mask to save grandma?

At this time another nurse said, “Well, when this all started we were pressured to report everyone who was admitted into the hospital as a covid case. We were also told that we were to report every death as a covid death, and to do our best to get people on a ventilator, even though we knew that it seemed to actually make things worse for the patient.”

The Jews used to have this Temple with a big curtain in it that kept the public from seeing the face of God. Then Jesus died, and the curtain was torn.

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@bulmabriefs144,

Bulma,

In this thread, I am supporting your right to be stupid. I don't know what science would have to do to change your mind. I don't know if any evidence would ever change your mind. Part of being intelligent is being able to say "I will change my mind on this topic if this evidence is presented". But that is not the point of this thread.

You have the right to ignore evidence, to reject science and to believe what you will about the vaccine I am supporting your right to refuse a vaccination until you see whatever evidence you need to change your mind.

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@maxdancona,

It's not stupid to be able to think for yourself. It's never stupid to do so. It may conceivably be crazy (ask me about Ancient Atlantean theories). But never stupid.

I'm supporting your right to think differently from me. Even if it seems as though you're similar to an animal being herded to me.

As for "science," science is about testing experiments. If they don't work we change the hypothesis. I have done my own testing and arrived at a result. I have found that staying indoors makes me sicker. I currently have pneumonia after a couple of months of lazy summer. One thing science is not about, is never about, is consensus.

Consensus is dogma. My parents taught me early: "If everyone is saying to jump off a bridge, do you do it?" No, you don't do peer pressure, you think through whether the people making poor decisions are supposed to be your friends.

1 Reply

@bulmabriefs144,

bulmabriefs144 wrote:

It's not stupid to be able to think for yourself. It's never stupid to do so. It may conceivably be crazy (ask me about Ancient Atlantean theories). But never stupid.

I'm supporting your right to think differently from me. Even if it seems as though you're similar to an animal being herded to me.

We seem to be in agreement on the topic of this thread. We both agree that you shouldn't be forced to take the vaccine against your will. The issue of whether covid is real or not is another topic.

I think you are batshit crazy... but I still support your right to make medical decisions for yourself. I hope you can at least appreciate that.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I am batshit crazy. But I do agree with your OP premise so YAAAAAAY, we agree (for once).

Btw, the Ancient Atlanteans theory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw

I am also a flat Earther, because why not.

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@maxdancona,

If the vaccine was proven to be 100% effective, then those who have received it should have no fear of mixing with those who have chosen not to have it. But as it stands today, whether or not you have had the Vaccine, you still stand the chance of dying from the Corona virus, or the side effects caused by the vaccine.

The decision as to whether you want the injection or not, should be left to the individual. If death from the Corona virus is frightening to you, and you believe that you will then never catch it, then by all means, 'Go for it."

But if you are afraid of dying from the vaccine, or any long term or short term side effects, and you are prepared to have the injection only if those who are trying to force it on you, are prepared to sign a legal document accepting blame for a death or any serious side effects, "YOU WILL NEVER GET IT."

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

You are off topic. (Although the vaccine has been proven to be 90% effective so your point doesn't even make sense.)

I am saying that even people who are batshit crazy have the right to refuse medical treatment for their own person.

Do you agree with that premise?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

As I have explained in my previous post I support the right of any person, Intelligent or otherwise, to reject an injection that has proven to be 10% ineffective of stopping the Corona virus, and possible death from short or long term side effects.

Any who have received the injection, and are afraid to mix with those who have not had the injection, are proof positive that they have no faith in the effectiveness of their injection.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Ok, so you believe that there are circumstances where the State can force people undergo medical procedures against their will.

I did not say I "believe" that. You asked me if I "feel" that...and I answered that I do.

Yes, I feel (it is my opinion) that the State CAN force people to be vaccinated against things like smallpox, polio, and a deadly coronavirus like Covid19.

Quote:

Can you specify which circumstances qualify?

Yes, I can.

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Is this an arbitrary standard?

Of course it is an arbitrary standard. You asked ME how I feel on this issue. My standard is MY standard. Any standards I have on these kinds of issues are mine..and yours are yours.

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What principle makes forced vaccination permissible while forced sterilization is not?

The potential for damage to society of people conducting themselves as usual during a pandemic of the sort we are currently experiencing, in my opinion, is great enough to require governmental mandate of certain conduct...including social distancing; wearing of masks; and vaccination.

The potential for damage to society of people having babies they cannot afford, in my opinion, does not rise to that level.

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@maxdancona,

good morning.

1. I didnt man to imply that the issues would be adjudicated on the basis of the 1st amendment (I THINK THEY OUGHTA BE TO MAXIMIZE THE EFFECT ). Remember that all cases against th Constitution ony effct federal law and the vaccines are being handed out.

state by state.

2. Not being sick when a vaccine is administered is what its all about. We wish, via vaccination, to keep that condition of health among a larger an larger herd. By that, the disease itself would fae away by not having suitable hosts.

3. The govt can expand its "right to vaccinate" by xpanding the relationhip of th vacccine recipients.
Like, govt workers, or workrs of industris supplying govt with equip or srvices. Youre merely arguing for a condition a vie that e all know is mrely extending conditions that allow continuation of Russian Roulette.
I actually would lik to e a case brought bfore the USSC basd on public health . It, as you believe, this is a "Right", then the rights of the affetced public must be protected by means that could include
a.Forced isolation of th unvaccinted
b. Doing as many states are--requiring draconian levels of testing at the patints xpense. (AND ISOLATION).

The rights of privacy are, like those of the second amendment, not infinite. They mrely need (As Justice SCalia said in an opinion) to justify the laws with rasonable and logical bases.

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The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

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