The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

@farmerman,

The principle here is pretty basic.

People have control over their own bodies. You can't force someone who isn't sick to undergo a medical procedure that they don't want and don't believe in.

You are proposing that we force people to get vaccines over their objections. I have a problem with that. The rest of your arguments are tangential to this main point.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

I have a problem with not giving a damn if you infect everyone out of a vainglorious attempt at asserting no feasance to the herd despite being of the herd and causing potentially dozens to be killed by your act of defiance.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The principle here is pretty basic.

People have control over their own bodies. You can't force someone who isn't sick to undergo a medical procedure that they don't want and don't believe in.

You are proposing that we force people to get vaccines over their objections. I have a problem with that. The rest of your arguments are tangential to this main point.

Okay, I will ask again. At what point do you think it would be proper for governments to REQUIRE vaccination?"

If 10,000,000 people die world-wide of a particular disease?

If 2% of the entire population dies of the disease?

If 10% of the entire population dies of the disease?

If 33%?

50%.

Surely there is a point where mandated vaccination would move you off this position. Just give us an idea of how bad things would have to get before you considered it a crisis where humanity should take precedence over individual freedom to be a dunderhead?

Just a rough estimate, Max.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Just to clarify...

1. I am fully vaccinated. My children (all over 12) are vaccinated. I believe the vaccination is safe and effective.

2. I have a problem with forcing other people to get vaccinated over their objections.

These are two separate issues.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

That is a valid question. But it is a question I can't answer. It is a matter of balancing two different sets of rights. This is a difficult thing to do, and you aren't doing it any better than I am.

Right now the facts are this...

1. The case fatality rate for unvaccinated people is around 4% (that means 4% of the people who get covid-19 end up dying from the disease). The fatality rate for people who are fully vaccinated is significantly lower.

2. The case fatality rate for unvaccinated children from 0 to 14 years of age is extremely low.

3. There is a Delta variant which is more transmissible. The vaccines continue to be widely effective against this (and all other) variants).

4. There is a chance that some mutation may make things worse.

5. We can change our policy to make it more strict in the future.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

It's not two separate issues. It's your belief that a herd member has the right to infect and potentially kill dozens of others. Your blessing makes you culpable even if you have had all three vaccines and booster shots.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I think we agree on the facts... so this is a value judgement.

I stand by my principle. If things get significantly worse (as shown by actual evidence) then I will change my position. Right now, we are not anywhere near that point.

0 Replies

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

It's not two separate issues. It's your belief that a herd member has the right to infect and potentially kill dozens of others. Your blessing makes you culpable even if you have had all three vaccines and booster shots.

You are being silly.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Only in the minds of those who choose not to see.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

That is a valid question. But it is a question I can't answer. It is a matter of balancing two different sets of rights. This is a difficult thing to do, and you aren't doing it any better than I am.

Right now the facts are this...

1. The case fatality rate for unvaccinated people is around 4% (that means 4% of the people who get covid-19 end up dying from the disease). The fatality rate for people who are fully vaccinated is significantly lower.

2. The case fatality rate for unvaccinated children from 0 to 14 years of age is extremely low.

3. There is a Delta variant which is more transmissible. The vaccines continue to be widely effective against this (and all other) variants).

4. There is a chance that some mutation may make things worse.

5. We can change our policy to make it more strict in the future.

How about if 3/4 of all the population of the planet Earth died of a disease...and a vaccine existed that would protect some, but only if almost everyone were vaccinated...

...would you then get off that "balancing of 'rights'" nonsense and see that vaccination SHOULD BE MANDATED.

At what point would you see that the "balancing" is bullshit?

I think we are already there. I think everyone without a truly valid health issue preventing such a vaccination SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO BE VACCINATED.

I expect you realized I was kidding with the "dunce cap in a corner" or "put in prison." But a vaccination passport mandate for anyone who wants to participate in MOST society functions SHOULD BE IN PLACE ALREADY.

Yes...give the people the right not to be vaccinated...but give society to right to protect itself from the stupidity. If you are not vaccinated, you do not go into any stores, shops, theaters, public venues of any kind.

But I ask again...AT WHAT POINT TO YOU GET OFF THE BALANCING RIGHTS WITH THE RIGHTS OF SOCIETY IN GENERAL?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You are arguing for extremism Frank. The fact is we do this balancing all the time. Balancing is part of living in a modern democratic society.

People after 9/11 were terrified of terrorists and people were worried that terrorists were hiding behind the fourth amendment (the police couldn't search their houses/phones without due process). And people were correct... giving the police liberty to break human rights would make people safer.

We passed (and got rid of) the Patriot Act which did remove some rights. But we also kept most of our Constitutional rights. It was a balance.

There are many other example... we could save thousands of lives by lowering the speed limit to 40 mph nationwide. Or we could get places faster (and riskier) by eliminating speed limits. We strike a balance between the two extremes.

For any thing you are frightened of, there is a balance.

You are arguing that we need to go to one extreme or the other. That simply isn't true.

1 Reply

I believe what Franks stated. I believe there ought to be universally free vaccines worldwide and that we should go in lockdown almost immediately. Not that my points will be taken seriously.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are arguing for extremism Frank. The fact is we do this balancing all the time. Balancing is part of living in a modern democratic society.

People after 9/11 were terrified of terrorists and people were worried that terrorists were hiding behind the fourth amendment (the police couldn't search their houses/phones without due process). And people were correct... giving the police liberty to break human rights would make people safer.

We passed (and got rid of) the Patriot Act which did remove some rights. But we also kept most of our Constitutional rights. It was a balance.

There are many other example... we could save thousands of lives by lowering the speed limit to 40 mph nationwide. Or we could get places faster (and riskier) by eliminating speed limits. We strike a balance between the two extremes.

For any thing you are frightened of, there is a balance.

You are arguing that we need to go to one extreme or the other. That simply isn't true.

You must not have understood my question.

HOW BAD WOULD THINGS HAVE TO GET BEFORE YOU DECIDED THAT THE NEEDS OF SOCIETY OUTWEIGH THE SUPPOSED RIGHT OF EACH INDIVIDUAL?

On second thought, you probably did understand my question, but you want to avoid it, because your supposed dichotomy is an absurdity.

"The needs of the many outweigh..."

EVERY GODDAM PERSON NOW REFUSING VACCINATION ON THE WHIM OF "PERSONAL FREEDOM" IS A JACKASS.

And this is not a one off. It is happening on all sorts of issues...especially here in America where "personal freedom" has been bastardized to the point of license.

Yeah, I love personal freedom myself. But I realize the needs of the many...society and civilization...demand that I give up lots of personal freedom in the interests of those things.

There are people who won't make that move.

When their refusal starts to endanger the many...they've got to be slapped down.

We are getting perilously close to the point where vaccination must be mandated. The voices speaking out against this necessary and wise move have got to be lowered.

0 Replies

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

I believe what Franks stated. I believe there ought to be universally free vaccines worldwide and that we should go in lockdown almost immediately. Not that my points will be taken seriously.

I certainly take them seriously. The world is taking a beating right now...and moves have to be made. Some will want to wait until disaster. The wise will recognize that it is better to take wiser precautions.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Just to clarify...

1. I am fully vaccinated. My children (all over 12) are vaccinated. I believe the vaccination is safe and effective.

2. I have a problem with forcing other people to get vaccinated over their objections.

These are two separate issues.

An if your children was under 12 and could not be vaccinated as yet you would have no problem with their teachers or others such exposing them to this disease as it is their right to walk around possibly exposing children to this disease.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

I would have no problem with that (given reasonable precautions).

The fact is that children under 12 are at very low risk of serious disease from covid. If the facts were different then my opinion would be different.

1 Reply

Kids that get the virus take it home to the adults.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

If the adults are vaccinated, this is also low risk.

You could go one step further and point out that not everyone can be vaccinated. And you would be right.

But each "yes but" reduces the risk for a smaller population of people

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Excuses, excuses. Anything to dodge reality. I give up since you don't intend to learn anything.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

I don't know what "reality" you are talking about Edgar (unless you are living in your own reality).

There is no place on this thread that you and I seem to disagree on the facts. We both agree that covid is deadly and that vaccines are safe and effective. You haven't found issue with any of the actual statistics I have posted.

You are pushing for an extreme reaction. I am promoting a balanced reaction that takes human beings into account. This is a matter of personal values, not of "reality".

0 Replies

The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

Quick Links

My Account

able2know