6
   

The Rights of People to not get Vaccinated.

 
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 10:10 am
What exactly do people want to do to the "idiots" who won't get vaccinated? Should they be jailed? Should they be fined? Should they be kicked out of work or school?

Part of the problem with extremism is that extreme policies have unintended consequences. If you jail people, you not only hurt society but you also concentrate the virus. If you threaten peoples livelihoods, you will have more people hiding symptoms and forging documents.

If this is about punishing the "idiots" who refuse to "see reality"... these extreme policies make sense. Everyone loves punishing the idiots around them. Whether you are a Trump Supporter or you love AOC and Bernie... we are all united in wanting to see the idiots on the other side get theirs.

It this is about public health, and the goal is truly to do as much as possible to prevent the spread of the disease, a

- more measured
- less punitive
- outreach based

approach may lead to better results.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 10:15 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I would have no problem with that (given reasonable precautions).

The fact is that children under 12 are at very low risk of serious disease from covid. If the facts were different then my opinion would be different.


Children are at fairly low risk at the moment only for now and one repeat completely unneeded death of a child due to idiots not getting the shots and then being around children is one to many deaths.

The word manslaughter come to mind.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 10:21 am
@BillRM,
That's rather extreme, Bill.

We could save the lives of thousands of kids by lowering the national speed limit to 40mph. We haven't done that (and that I regularly drive over 65mph). Is that manslaughter?

You are arguing against the balanced decisions we need to make all the time. Your extreme "not one kid should ever die" argument doesn't work in a modern society.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 10:52 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

That's rather extreme, Bill.

We could save the lives of thousands of kids by lowering the national speed limit to 40mph. We haven't done that (and that I regularly drive over 65mph). Is that manslaughter?

You are arguing against the balanced decisions we need to make all the time. Your extreme "not one kid should ever die" argument doesn't work in a modern society.


You keep talking about extremes, Max.

But what is NOT extreme, but enough to say, "EVERYONE MUST GET VACCINATED!"

PERIOD!

Would three-quarters of the entire population of the planet be enough for you to put aside these "personal freedom" arguments?

What would it take?

If you are saying that nothing...not even three-quarters of the entire population of the planet dying would move you...at least say that.

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 10:55 am
@Frank Apisa,
There are a significant number of human beings ("idiots" you call them) who do not want to get the vaccine.

You say "EVERYONE MUST GET VACCINATED"

They say "**** YOU! WE AREN'T GETTING VACCINATED"

That's the reality. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to jail them? Fine them? Keep them from ever working again?

That is the extremism on your part. You are insisting that people get vaccinated without any realistic way of making this happen.

Tell me your plan, and then we can talk about the unintended consequences of your extreme position.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 10:58 am
@maxdancona,
The ridiculous thing about this extreme position is that it is counter-productive. By calling people idiots and telling them what they MUST do, you make it less likely they will ever agree to get the vaccine. You have turned this into just another partisan shouting match.

Maybe if you stopped making this into an ideological pissing match... you might get more people actually vaccinated.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:06 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


There are a significant number of human beings ("idiots" you call them) who do not want to get the vaccine.

You say "EVERYONE MUST GET VACCINATED"

They say "**** YOU! WE AREN'T GETTING VACCINATED"

That's the reality. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to jail them? Fine them? Keep them from ever working again?

That is the extremism on your part. You are insisting that people get vaccinated without any realistic way of making this happen.

Tell me your plan, and then we can talk about the unintended consequences of your extreme position.


I've already told you my plan...twice!

A vaccination passport. If you are not vaccinated...you simply will not be allowed to participate in any social functions...like shopping, restaurants, theaters, other entertainment venues, etc.

NOW...how about telling us at what point YOU would stop with the "personal freedom" stuff...and espouse EVERYONE GETS VACCINATED OR THAT KIND OF THING IS IMPOSED ON THOSE WHO DO NOT?

C'mon...tell us. And if there is no point where you will get off that nonsense, let us know.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:08 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The ridiculous thing about this extreme position is that it is counter-productive. By calling people idiots and telling them what they MUST do, you make it less likely they will ever agree to get the vaccine. You have turned this into just another partisan shouting match.

Maybe if you stopped making this into an ideological pissing match... you might get more people actually vaccinated.


Maybe you are correct.

BUT GETTING PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO REFRAIN FROM CHAMPIONING THAT CRAP ABOUT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM BEING MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT IS GOOD FOR SOCIETY AND HUMANITY...HAS A MUCH BETTER CHANCE OF WORKING.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:21 am
@Frank Apisa,
I think the vaccine passports will be pretty much useless.

1. Many businesses will ignore them (i.e. let people in without passports) because there is an economic incentive for doing so.

2. Many people will forge vaccine passports.

3. Many people will forget/lose their legitimate vaccine passports and be hindered from doing thing (except for the businesses choose to ignore them anyway)

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
There is NO CHANCE that I will decide that civil rights are less important than the "good of society".

In some cases I will be persuaded to make an exception. But in general, I believe that civil rights are more important than safety. I don't believe the fight against communism justified employers violating the privacy of citizens. I don't believe the threat of terrorism justified taking away Constitutional rights against search and seizure or freedom of association.

In most cases (except the most dire emergencies) I will choose civil rights over hysteria.

That is my personal belief. You aren't going to get me to change it.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:27 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I think the vaccine passports will be pretty much useless.

1. Many businesses will ignore them (i.e. let people in without passports) because there is an economic incentive for doing so.

2. Many people will forge vaccine passports.

3. Many people will forget/lose their legitimate vaccine passports and be hindered from doing thing (except for the businesses choose to ignore them anyway)


Well, if left up to people like you, Max, we will never know if they will be effective.

All of the things you mentioned can be handled...at least to some extent. We do with driver's licenses, for instance.

But you still have not even touched on the question I have asked.

Let me ask a predicate question:

Do you agree that a situation could get so dire that mandated vaccinations would have to be instituted?

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:30 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


There is NO CHANCE that I will decide that civil rights are less important than the "good of society".

In some cases I will be persuaded to make an exception. But in general, I believe that civil rights are more important than safety. I don't believe the fight against communism justified employers violating the privacy of citizens. I don't believe the threat of terrorism justified taking away Constitutional rights against search and seizure or freedom of association.

In most cases (except the most dire emergencies) I will choose civil rights over hysteria.

That is my personal belief. You aren't going to get me to change it.



So I take it that if the CDC or the WHO declared that unless mandated vaccinations were established, a particular disease would kill over half the people alive on the planet during the next year...

...you would still be on the side of people making individual decisions about whether to get the vaccination?

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Do you agree that a situation could get so dire that mandated vaccinations would have to be instituted?


Yes I do agree. I have been very clear. Facts matter.

I am against police suspending civil rights (search without a warrant or spying on religious groups) to fight terrorism. Under dire circumstances I would suspend that.

If we are talking hypothetical situations, I would be willing to suspend most civil rights given the circumstances were dire enough.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:57 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Do you agree that a situation could get so dire that mandated vaccinations would have to be instituted?


Yes I do agree. I have been very clear. Facts matter.

I am against police suspending civil rights (search without a warrant or spying on religious groups) to fight terrorism. Under dire circumstances I would suspend that.

If we are talking hypothetical situations, I would be willing to suspend most civil rights given the circumstances were dire enough.





Great, the predicate is now set...if "dire enough."

So, would the possible death of half the world's population be "dire enough" for you?

(Next question will be, "Would the possible death of one-third of the world's population be "dire enough" for you?)
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 11:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
It is called a balance Frank.

Under what circumstance would you suspend the Bill of Rights and support martial law? I would assume this would involve the same number of deaths?

You are jumping to the extreme position as the first option. I would hold onto civil rights as long as possible and only give them up as the last option.
Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2021 12:08 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

It is called a balance Frank.

Under what circumstance would you suspend the Bill of Rights and support martial law? I would assume this would involve the same number of deaths?


Here in New Jersey, we would not call it balance. We would call it bullshit.

I cannot imagine a number of people who might die that would cause the Bill of Rights to be suspended...but I can think of many scenarios where martial law might have to be instituted. (That may be coming, if the Trump-supporting American Right continues down the path they are on.)

I would hate for those things to happen, but I certainly would back them if the situation called for it.

Quote:
You are jumping to the extreme position as the first option. I would hold onto civil rights as long as possible and only give them up as the last option.


Attempting to get this pandemic under control is NOT AN EXTREME POSITION.

If Trump had not started the **** he did, most of the Republicans would be doing the honorable thing...to do everything in their power to get everyone possible to be vaccinate.

The problem arises because these assholes have impeded, rather than furthered, efforts in that direction.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just say, "I am not going to answer your question, because there is no answer that makes sense...and certainly none that I would want to defend?"
0 Replies
 
 

 
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