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Are Muslims Tricked By Their Own Religion?

 
 
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 01:30 am
You see, the Quran directly says that Allah is a deceiver.
Quote:
But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers

Quote:
Are they then secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi) save folk that perish


Muslims believe they are tricking others with various stories about how Islam does not "really" say this or that in the Quran (taqiyya), usually of its nonviolence (when anyone reading a few pages or watching the news thinks otherwise). But you only ever fool yourself when you lie.

There's a problem with a god who claims to be a deceiver is that you cannot possibly trust him not to deceive you. So how can Muslims trust that their own god is not leading them directly to the very sort of suffering they claim is for unbelievers?

So, if this god tells you to attack apostates and infidels, is this action actually right? Or is it an evil god tricking people into opposing God and doing violence against their fellow man.

Let's read two quotes together.
Quote:
Allah leads astray many and guides many to the right way by the same thing.

Quote:
Everyone receives what he sends forward, either these are good deeds or bad.


So Allah could conceivably tell you that something is good (killing people declared infidels) when it's actually bad (thou shalt not murder, according to Bible), but you'd nonetheless be condemned by it. In fact...

Quote:
And if we had willed, we could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me will come into effect (that) "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and people all together."


Notice this says nothing about believers here. The intent is to trick people into a Hell of their own making.
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:50 am
Quote:
Are Muslims tricked by their own religion?


No more so than members of any other faith community.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:54 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
Are Muslims tricked by their own religion?


No more so than members of any other faith community.


Right!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:59 am
Anyone supposing the "Holy Books" of the Abrahamic religions...describe a god who is peaceful, loving, tolerant, and/or respectful...

...is being tricked BIG TIME.

0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 06:21 am
@bulmabriefs144,
You'd probably do better focusing on your own religion instead of casting stones at others'.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:37 am
@engineer,
This is a nice deflection, but it doesn't face the problem of actually feeling really really sorry for millions of Muslims potentially induced into jihad that could mess with their afterlife. This is not a "casting stones" as much as it is, "the Quran literally seems to be leading followers down a primrose path."

As for those who are like "well Christianity is just as bad... " this isn't about good or bad, it's about the followers. Christian followers who go around doing things like blowing up abortion clinics are failing to love their neighbor. Muslims who blow up places are being tooled around by an ideology that tells them such behavior will actually be rewarded. But if Allah really is the greatest deceiver, then it isn't the Christians who are tricked when they decide to believe the best of people (and thus believe jihad isn't really about holy war). It's the Muslims.

That's why I feel pity.
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:45 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Who cares?
izzythepush
 
  5  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:02 am
@Mame,
Monolithic thinking, people like the OP need a bogieman.

It used to be the Commies, now it’s Islam, they can pin all the horrors of the World on it while pretending to be such good people.

I feel sorry for the American women denied access to abortion services and family planning. It’s like the Dark Ages over there.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:08 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Monolithic thinking, people like the OP need a bogieman.

It used to be the Commies, now it’s Islam, they can pin all the horrors of the World on it while pretending to be such good people.

I feel sorry for the American women denied access to abortion services and family planning. It’s like the Dark Ages over there.

We always (the US) seem to be on the side of human rights for our enemies. If we could only secure some at home I would be less antagonistic.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:20 am
@edgarblythe,
One thing that marked Islam out were strict rules about the treatment of non combatants during warfare, very much at odds with their Christian counterparts.

You’re right though, it’s all about looking at how bad everyone else is instead of a bit of self reflection.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:41 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

This is not a "casting stones" as much as it is, "the Quran literally seems to be leading followers down a primrose path."

You're fooling yourself. You are not an expert on Islam, you cannot put these comments in context, have no historical background. The same is true of the Bible. Every parable in the Bible requires some understanding of context, of how the society it was preached to would interpret it. Some parables translate well, some require an entire sermon to explain it. You posting poorly understood comments about a religion you know very little about is all about casting stones, especially given that you are not in a conversation with Muslims here. Your comments are geared to Christians, looking for condemnation of Muslims. If you really want to understand, find a site devoted to Islam and ask someone to explain it to you.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 09:56 am
@engineer,
...but, he/she only wants agreement, not real info. Clearly he demonstrates his bias and disdain indicating that all Muslims are of the devil and are lesser creatures. My guess is that he rarely if ever talked to a Muslim.

Furthermore, all religious books and/or bibles are written by man. As such, they’re subject to distortion and outright falsehood in the name of advancement of whatever brand they’re selling.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 10:05 am
@Ragman,
thats always been a problem with certain religion centered lives.

"Infrequently right ,but never in doubt, and always at the top of their lungs."
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 10:32 am
@farmerman,
All of which makes it senseless to engage in conversation with them on such subjects.

I can think of lack of success and frustration of what happens when you try to teach a pig how to sing.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2021 03:41 pm
@engineer,
I am currently watching Star Trek: The Final Frontier.

In it, they are led by a charismatic Vulcan named Sybok (Spock's estranged half-brother) to an unknown place past an area known as The Great Barrier. We are told this land is Eden (or any number of linguistic equivalents), but it just looks like a rocky desert. At first, the land appears vacant but then Sybok loudly mentions how far he's come, and an energy being of some sort shows up. I've taken the liberty of quoting the exchange.

Quote:
(Light bursts from the area, almost hitting the Enterprise-A in space above)
"God": Brave souls, welcome.
"Bones" McCoy: Is this the voice of God?
"God": One voice, many faces.
(The energy being gradually shifts his face until he settles)
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/9/9c/481837-thefinalfrontier1009jk0_super-500x250.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150521215859
"God": Does this better suit your expectations?
Sybok: (I couldn't catch what he said, probably a Vulcan word)
"God": It is I. The journey you undertook to reach me could not have been an easy one.
Sybok: It was not. The Barrier stood between us, but we breached it.
(Question. If this was God, why is he imprisoned behind a barrier? Wouldn't that be more in line with a sealed demon?)
"God": Magnificent. You are the first to find me.
Sybok: We sought only your infinite wisdom.
"God": And how did you breach the Barrier?
Sybok: With a starship.
"God": This starship, could it carry my wisdom beyond the Barrier?
Sybok: It could. Yes.
"God": Then I shall make use of this starship.
Sybok: It will be your chariot!
(Pans to Kirk)
Kirk: Excuse me...
"God": It will carry my power to every corner of creation.
Kirk: Excuse me, I'd just like to ask a question.
(Sybok turns)
What does God need with a starship?
"God": Bring the ship closer.
Kirk: I said, what does God need with a starship?
Bones: Jim what are you doing?
Kirk: I'm asking a question.
"God": Who is this creature?
Kirk: Who am I? Don't you know? Aren't you God?
Sybok: He has his doubts.
"God": You doubt me?
Kirk: I seek proof.
Bones: Jim, you don't ask the Almighty for his ID.
"God": Then here is the proof you seek.
(Eye-beam blasts him)
Kirk: Why is God angry?
Sybok: Why? Why have you done this to my friend?
"God": He doubts me.
Spock: You have not answered his question. What does God need with a starship?
(Blasts Spock as well)
"God": Do you doubt me?
Bones: I doubt any God who inflicts pain for his own pleasure.


As Spock would put it, logically, any being that has any claim to be God would not need followers, because an all powerful God would not have actual need. "What does God need with a starship?" Also, any being who claims to be God would not care if people doubt or question him.

Yet the "god" Allah does exactly that, punishing apostates and unbelievers.

Listen to the (real) words of Jesus.

Quote:
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


Any "god" who is angered by the failings of people in this world is not God at all, but a being of mortal origin. Jesus, on the other hand, is God. He willingly allows himself to be given over even to death if it will save humans. The false "Jesus" of the Quran lets someone else die for him.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2021 06:35 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
I guess you haven't read the Old Testament. Lots of smiting there.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2021 02:41 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

I guess you haven't read the Old Testament. Lots of smiting there.


I also guess he hasn't.

The god Jesus worshiped puts that Star Trek god to shame in the "needs" department...and in the smiting one also.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2021 03:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
So many of these types spend all their time dividing people into sheep and goats.

If you believe in the right god in the correct way you’re a sheep and can do whatever the **** you like to goats, (and a lot of other sheep for that matter.)

There’s no moral development, no do unto others, nothing, just us and them, and smug, self congratulatory pats on the back.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 16 Feb, 2022 11:18 pm
@izzythepush,
You are good to make this observation.

However, you take this observation and draw the completely wrong assumption from it. Usually either:
1. We therefore cannot believe God exists.
2. Some kind of woke crap about all religions being the same.

No, what this eventually led me to was:
3. We cannot take the authority of the writers of the Bible seriously. We need to go through the Bible and reject portions that do not fit the archetype of a God likely to create (and preserve) the universe.

I then proceeded to tear out roughly half of the Bible and make my own. Any pages concerning hellfire/damnation/day of the lord/second coming I decided was just so much garbage.

Quote:
If you believe in the right god in the correct way you’re a sheep and can do whatever the **** you like to goats, (and a lot of other sheep for that matter.)


Do you know why Jesus gives them this image?

It's because the Jews are already dividing animals (and people) into sheep and GOATs. Go read the passage before that. Trust me. Jesus tells a bunch of parables that basically show an unjust king. This is the Messiah that the Jews want. One that will come to judge the wicked and the good. Jesus gives this to show them up for being assholes who have corrupted God's justice and allowed to poor, the widow, and the orphan to suffer.

Jesus was crucified because he was the sort of Messiah they didn't want at all.

Btw, if you think you're free of this us/them categorization, you are sorely mistaken. None of us are. Or do you not see people who don't think or vote or do the things you do as less worthy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NLV24qTnlg
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Feb, 2022 02:48 am
@bulmabriefs144,
I have no interest in your opinion.

You are wrong about everything.
0 Replies
 
 

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