14
   

Afghanistan and Beyond

 
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2021 10:00 pm
@Mame,
This is a thread specifically about Afghanistan. The British Empire played an important part in the history of Afghanistan.

They drew the borders specifically to divide the Pashtun (as Edgar's video pointed out). The complete disregard of the British for the ethnic, family and trade connection among the indigenous people is a factor in the problems today. I will admit that Stalin was just as bad as the British in screwing up the Afghan people.

That being said, I don't think there was another empire as evil for as long as the British Empire. White Supremacy (at least in North America and Australia) comes from the British Empire. The British Empire established the Slave Triangle that brought and maintained Slavery in North America leading to the enslavement and death of millions of African people.

Getting back to the topic, it was the British Empire that glorified the idea of the White Savior who would bring civilization to the indigenous peoples of the world. This is still what we are doing in Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:12 am
@glitterbag,
He’s just desperate to be noticed.

Cockroaches hate being ignored.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:16 am
@Mame,
Colonialism is bad but it’s better than exterminating the indigenous population and moving in.

America is the country that popularised genocide to the point that it inspired the Final Solution.

The cockroach is desperate for attention.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:25 am
@izzythepush,
Max has lost the argument, and because he is a bigot he resorts to Xeophobia.

He attacks my nationality because that’s all he has.

At least his Anglophobia is preferable to his usual White Supremacist nonsense and Anti Semitism.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 03:46 am
HCR wrote:
According to an article by Susannah George in the Washington Post, the lightning speed takeover of Afghanistan by Taliban forces—which captured all 17 of the regional capitals and the national capital of Kabul in about nine days with astonishing ease—was a result of “cease fire” deals, which amounted to bribes, negotiated after former president Trump’s administration came to an agreement with the Taliban in February 2020. When U.S. officials excluded the Afghan government from the deal, soldiers believed that it was only a question of time until they were on their own and cut deals to switch sides. When Biden announced that he would honor Trump’s deal, the process sped up.

This seems to me to beg the question of how the Biden administration continued to have faith that the Afghan army would at the very least delay the Taliban victory, if not prevent it. Did military and intelligence leaders have no inkling of such a development? In a speech today in which he stood by his decision to remove U.S. troops from Afghanistan, President Joe Biden explained that the U.S. did not begin evacuating Afghan civilians sooner because some, still hoping they could hold off the Taliban, did not yet want to leave.

At the same time, Biden said, “the Afghan government and its supporters discouraged us from organizing a mass exodus to avoid triggering, as they said, ‘a crisis of confidence.’” He explained that he had urged Afghan President Ashraf Ghani and Chairman Abdullah Abdullah of the High Council for National Reconciliation to clean up government corruption, unite politically, and seek a political settlement with the Taliban. They “flatly refused” to do so, but “insisted the Afghan forces would fight.”

Instead, government officials themselves fled the country before the Taliban arrived in Kabul, throwing the capital into chaos.

Biden argued today that the disintegration of the Afghan military proved that pulling out the few remaining U.S. troops was the right decision. He inherited from former president Donald Trump the deal with the Taliban agreeing that if the Taliban stopped killing U.S. soldiers and refused to protect terrorists, the U.S. would withdraw its forces by May 1, 2021. The Taliban stopped killing soldiers after it negotiated the deal, and Trump dropped the number of soldiers in Afghanistan from about 15,500 to about 2,500.

Biden had either to reject the deal, pour in more troops, and absorb more U.S. casualties, or honor the plan that was already underway. “I stand squarely behind my decision,” Biden said today. “American troops cannot and should not be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves. We spent over a trillion dollars. We trained and equipped an Afghan military force of some 300,000 strong—incredibly well equipped—a force larger in size than the militaries of many of our NATO allies…. We gave them every tool they could need. We paid their salaries, provided…close air support. We gave them every chance to determine their own future. What we could not provide them was the will to fight for that future.”

“It is wrong to order American troops to step up when Afghanistan’s own armed forces would not. If the political leaders of Afghanistan were unable to come together for the good of their people, unable to negotiate for the future of their country when the chips were down, they would never have done so while U.S. troops remained in Afghanistan bearing the brunt of the fighting for them.”

Biden added, “I’m left again to ask of those who argue that we should stay: How many more generations of America’s daughters and sons would you have me send to fight…Afghanistan’s civil war when Afghan troops will not?”

The president recalled that the U.S. invaded Afghanistan almost 20 years ago to prevent another al Qaeda attack on America by making sure the Taliban government could not continue to protect al Qaeda and by removing Osama bin Laden. After accomplishing those goals, though, the U.S. expanded its mission to turn the country into a unified, centralized democracy, a mission that was not, Biden said, a vital national interest.

Biden, who is better versed in foreign affairs than any president since President George H. W. Bush, said today that the U.S. should focus not on counterinsurgency or on nation building, but narrowly on counterterrorism, which now reaches far beyond Afghanistan. Terrorism missions do not require a permanent military presence. The U.S. already conducts such missions, and will conduct them in Afghanistan in the future, if necessary, he said.

Biden claims that human rights are central to his foreign policy, but he wants to accomplish them through diplomacy, economic tools, and rallying others to join us, rather than with “endless military deployments.” He explained that U.S. diplomats are secure at the Kabul airport, and he has authorized 6,000 U.S. troops to go to Afghanistan to help with evacuation.

Biden accepted responsibility for his decision to leave Afghanistan, and he maintained that it is the right decision for America.

While a lot of U.S. observers have quite strong opinions about what the future looks like for Afghanistan, it seems to me far too soon to guess how the situation there will play out. There is a lot of power sloshing around in central Asia right now, and I don’t think either that Taliban leaders are the major players or that Afghanistan is the primary stage. Russia has just concluded military exercises with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, both of which border Afghanistan, out of concern about the military takeover of Afghanistan by the Taliban. At the same time, the area is about to have to deal with large numbers of Afghan refugees, who are already fleeing the country.

But the attacks on Biden for the withdrawal from Afghanistan do raise the important question of when it is in America’s interest to fight a ground war. Should we limit foreign intervention to questions of the safety of Americans? Should we protect our economic interests? Should we fight to spread democracy? Should we fight to defend human rights? Should we fight to shorten other wars, or prevent genocide?

These are not easy questions, and reasonable people can, and maybe should, disagree about the answers.

But none of them is about partisan politics, either; they are about defining our national interest.

It strikes me that some of the same people currently expressing concern over the fate of Afghanistan’s women and girls work quite happily with Saudi Arabia, which has its own repressive government, and have voted against reauthorizing our own Violence Against Women Act. Some of the same people worrying about the slowness of our evacuation of our Afghan allies voted just last month against providing more visas for them, and others seemed to worry very little about our utter abandonment of our Kurdish allies when we withdrew from northern Syria in 2019. And those worrying about democracy in Afghanistan seem to be largely unconcerned about protecting voting rights here at home.

Most notably to me, some of the same people who are now focusing on keeping troops in Afghanistan to protect Americans seem uninterested in stopping the spread of a disease that has already killed more than 620,000 of us and that is, once again, raging.

substack
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 06:52 am
@hightor,
Thanks for that. It contains information I was ignorant of. Best explanation of why there was no resistance I have seen.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 07:43 am

Public Citizen
@Public_Citizen
·

Defense stocks during the Afghanistan War:

Lockheed Martin: 1,236% return
Northrop Grumman: 1,196% return
Boeing: 975% return
General Dynamics: 625% return
Raytheon: 331% return

The military-industrial complex got exactly what it wanted out of this war.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:51 am
Reading in Yahoo news that GW Bush is upset that all the social progress we were making for Afghans has been upended by the Biden completion of the Trump withdrawal. I will be among the ones who maintain any human should have the unfettered right to better their circumstances, including the women of Afghanistan. And yet invading another country, attempting to impose our own values on the people, will always ultimately fail. Every time the United States has sought to impose its will and its culture on another nation, the result has been the same, whether in Vietnam, Latin American nations, the Middle East - We even tried it here, by imposing our will on the racists and nazi types, who are today still haters of blacks and Jews and still want to rid the nation of "socialists." The people ultimately revert to the original. 20 years of occupation was not enough in Aghanistan and neither would forty years have been. We owe the people of that nation the obligation to resettle the ones our invasion has corrupted. We will never be able to save them all. Another bitter lesson to imperialists.

It is not a lesson learned by our leaders. They acted as circumstances compelled them to. On the other fronts, imperialism goes on. Biden has doubled down on sanctions, refused to honor the Iran nuclear deal, continues the global strategies for power and economic domination, brought us back to the 60s re Cuba. In foreign policy the man embodies all our worst political instincts of the 20TH Century and put it all front and center for the 21ST.
Mame
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 08:54 am
@edgarblythe,
Hightor always seems to have the best info. That was a good read.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 10:52 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Reading in Yahoo news that GW Bush is upset that all the social progress we were making for Afghans has been upended by the Biden completion of the Trump withdrawal.

He's lucky that memories are short enough that he and the neoconservatives who designed and carried out his two long, costly, and ultimately unsuccessful experiments in "nation building" aren't being fingered as the real culprits in this debacle.

It's also a bit premature to say that "all the social progress" has been undone. There are many Afghanis under the age of twenty who were born after the last time the Taliban ruled and have grown up with a more cosmopolitan perspective. And there are many more girls and women who have been educated, many of whom are themselves now teachers. The Taliban may be successful in enforcing a certain type of social conformity but many young Afghanis will resent having to adopt a medieval mindset and could function, quietly, as cultural saboteurs over time.

Mame, thank you very much. If you follow the link you can subscribe to Richardson's newsletter and get it in your mailbox daily.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 11:03 am
Oh crap...I just read this opinion piece by Thomas Friedman and he basically makes my point about "social progress" — I could have just posted his column!

Quote:
For years, U.S. officials used a shorthand phrase to describe America’s mission in Afghanistan. It always bothered me: We are there to train the

That turned out to be shorthand for everything that was wrong with our mission — the idea that Afghans didn’t know how to fight and that just one more course in counterinsurgency would do the trick. Really? Thinking you need to train Afghans how to fight is like thinking you need to train Pacific Islanders how to fish. Afghan men know how to fight. They’ve been fighting one another, the British, the Soviets or the Americans for a long, long time.

It was never about the way our Afghan allies fought. It was always about their will to fight for the corrupt pro-American, pro-Western governments we helped stand up in Kabul. And from the beginning, the smaller Taliban forces — which no superpower was training — had the stronger will, as well as the advantage of being seen as fighting for the tenets of Afghan nationalism: independence from the foreigner and the preservation of fundamentalist Islam as the basis of religion, culture, law and politics.

In oft-occupied countries like Afghanistan, many people will actually prefer their own people as rulers (however awful) over foreigners (however well intentioned).

“We learn again from Afghanistan that although America can stop bad things from happening abroad, it cannot make good things happen. That has to come from within a country,” said Michael Mandelbaum, a U.S. foreign policy expert and the author of “Mission Failure: America and the World in the Post-Cold War Era.”

All of which leads to a fundamental and painful question: Was the U.S. mission there a total failure? Here I’d invoke one of my ironclad rules about covering the Middle East: When big events happen, always distinguish between the morning after and the morning after the morning after. Everything really important happens the morning after the morning after — when the full weight of history and the merciless balances of power assert themselves.

And so it will be in Afghanistan — for both the Taliban and President Biden.

Let’s start with the Taliban. Today, they are having a great morning-after celebration. They are telling themselves they defeated yet another superpower.

But will the Taliban simply resume where they left off 20 years ago — harboring Al Qaeda, zealously imposing their puritanical Islam and subjugating and abusing women and girls? Will the Taliban go into the business of trying to attack U.S. and European targets on their soil?

I don’t know. I do know they just inherited responsibility for all of Afghanistan. They will soon face huge pressure to deliver order and jobs for Afghans. And that will require foreign aid and investment from countries that America has a lot of influence with — Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the members of the European Union.

And with the United States gone, the Taliban will also have to navigate their survival while swimming alone with some real sharks — Pakistan, India, China, Russia and Iran. They might want to keep the White House phone number on speed dial.

“The post-2001 Taliban have proved to be a learning, more political organization that is more open to the influence of external factors,” said Thomas Ruttig in a paper for the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, The Washington Post noted.

We’ll see. The early signs — all sorts of Taliban abuses — are not promising. But we need to watch how, and if, they fully establish control. The Taliban’s main beef with America is that we were in their country. Let’s see what happens when we’re gone.

And let’s also remember: When the United States invaded Afghanistan in 2001, iPhones, Facebook and Twitter didn’t even exist. Flash forward to today: Afghanistan is not only much more connected to the world, but it’s connected internally as well. It will not be nearly as easy for the Taliban to hide their abuses from the world or from fellow Afghans.

In 2001, virtually no one in Afghanistan owned a mobile phone. Today, more than 70 percent of Afghans do, and many of them have internet-enabled smartphones. While there is nothing inherently liberalizing about owning a phone, according to a 2017 study by Internews, Afghanistan’s social media “is already propagating change as it has become a platform for denouncing cases of corruption and injustice, bringing attention to causes that have not yet been addressed on traditional media and seemingly letting any social media user voice a public opinion.’’

Maybe the Taliban will just shut it all down. And maybe they won’t be able to.

At the same time, a July 7 report in Time magazine on Afghanistan observed: “When U.S.-backed forces ousted the Taliban from power, in 2001, there were almost no girls in school across the country. Today, there are millions, and tens of thousands of women attending university, studying everything from medicine to miniature painting.’’

Maybe on the morning after the morning after, the Taliban will just order them all back under burqas and shut their schoolrooms. But maybe they will also encounter pushback from wives and daughters that they’ve never encountered before — precisely because of the social, educational and technological seeds of change planted by the United States over the last 20 years. I don’t know.


And what if all of the most educated Afghans try to emigrate — including civil servants, plumbers, electricians, computer repair experts and car mechanics — and the morning after the morning after, the country is left with a bunch of barely literate Taliban thugs to run the place? What will they do then? Especially since this is a much more environmentally stressed Afghanistan than the one the Taliban ruled 20 years ago?

According to a report published last year by National Geographic, “Afghanistan is one of the most vulnerable countries in the world to climate change, and one of the least equipped to handle what’s to come” — including drought, flooding, avalanches, landslides, extreme weather and mass displacement.

As for the Biden team, it is hard to imagine a worse morning after for it in Kabul. Its failure to create a proper security perimeter and transition process, in which Afghans who risked their lives to work with us these past two decades could be assured of a safe removal to America — not to mention an orderly exit for foreign diplomats, human rights activists and aid workers — is appalling and inexplicable.

But ultimately, the Biden team will be judged by how it handles the morning after the morning after. Biden made a claim — one that was shared by the Trump team — that America would be more secure and better able to deal with any terrorist threats if we were out of Afghanistan than if we stayed embedded there, with all the costs of people, energy and focus. He again suggested as much in his address to the nation Monday afternoon.

The Biden team essentially said that the old way of trying to secure America from Middle East terrorists through occupation and nation-building doesn’t work and that there is a better way. It needs to tell us what that way is and prove it out the morning after the morning after.

We’re at the start of one of the biggest geopolitical challenges the modern world has ever faced. Because there’s now a whole slew of countries — Libya, Lebanon, Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia — that have evicted the colonial great powers that once controlled them (and that brought both order and disorder) but have now also manifestly failed at governing themselves. What to do?

When the French president, Emmanuel Macron, visited Lebanon in July 2020, he was presented on his arrival with a petition signed by some 50,000 Lebanese calling for France to take control of Lebanon because of the Lebanese government’s “total inability to secure and manage the country.”

I doubt that is the last such petition we will see.

For the last 20 years, America tried to defend itself from terrorism emanating from Afghanistan by trying to nurture it to stability and prosperity through the promotion of gender pluralism, religious pluralism, education pluralism, media pluralism and, ultimately, political pluralism.

That theory was not wrong. We are entering an unprecedented era in human history, two simultaneous and hugely challenging climate changes at once: one in the climate of technology and one in the climate of the climate. Without such pluralism, neither Afghanistan nor any of these other failing states (or America, but that’s for another column) will be able to adapt to the 21st century.

But the theory relied on there being enough Afghans willing to sign on for more such pluralism. Many were. But too many were not. So Biden determined that we needed to stop this effort, leave Afghanistan and readjust our defense strategy. I pray that he is right. But he will be judged by what happens the morning after the morning after.

nyt/friedman
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 11:05 am
@hightor,
Canada had "Indian Schools" that were promoted as a way to protect indigenous girls and women. So did Australia. People in both of these countries are apologizing for this practice and now recognize these schooks as barbaric.

And yet, here we are again promoting these achools in Afghanistan.

Our attempt to save indigenous women from their own culture never end well.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 11:15 am
@maxdancona,
Interesting parallel – but not quite the same. Many Afghani women truly desire to obtain an education. Nor is the goal here the loss of cultural identity and assimilation into an Anglo culture. Muslims aren't strangers to "western" educational values and prior to the rise of the Taliban in the '90s women attended universities. It could be argued that during their first reign of power it was the Taliban which thought it was protecting "indigenous girls and women". We'll just have to see how this turns out.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 11:25 am
For Afghan Women, Fears of a Return to a Repressive Past

In the years since the U.S. invasion toppled the Taliban, girls and women have done things that would have been unimaginable under their rule. But will those gains hold?

Quote:
As Afghan women remained cloistered at home in Kabul, fearful for their lives and their futures, a starkly different image played out on Tuesday on Tolo News, an Afghan television station: a female presenter interviewing a Taliban official.

Sitting several feet away from Mawlawi Abdulhaq Hemad, a member of the Taliban’s media team, the host, Beheshta Arghand, asked him about the situation in Kabul and the Taliban’s conducting house-to-house searches in the Afghan capital.

“The entire world now recognizes that the Taliban are the real rulers of the country,” he said, adding: “I am still astonished that people are afraid of Taliban.”

But many are deeply fearful, among them the millions of Afghan women who are afraid of a return to a repressive past, when the Taliban were in power from 1996 to 2001, and barred women and girls from taking most jobs or going to school. In 1996, a woman in Kabul had the end of her thumb cut off for wearing nail varnish, according to Amnesty International. In recent months, some women have been flogged by Taliban fighters for having their faces uncovered.

In the two decades after the U.S. invasion toppled the Taliban, the United States invested more than $780 million to encourage women’s rights. Girls and women have joined the military and police forces, held political office, competed in the Olympics and scaled the heights of engineering on robotics teams — things that once seemed unimaginable under the Taliban.

Now, however, a central question remains: Will the Taliban once again trample over women’s rights with the same velocity they captured the country?

The Tolo News interview was part of a broader campaign by the Taliban since taking power to present a more moderate face to the world and to help tame the fear gripping the country. They are encouraging workers back to their jobs — and have even encouraged women to return to work and to take part in the government.

“The Islamic Emirate doesn’t want women to be victims,” Enamullah Samangani, a member of the Taliban’s cultural commission, was quoted as saying by The Associated Press, using the militants’ name for Afghanistan. “They should be in the government structure according to Shariah law.”

Still, worried about running afoul of local Taliban officials, many women have remained shuttered at home. Kabul residents have been tearing down advertisements showing women without head scarves in recent days. In some areas of Afghanistan, women have been told not to leave home without being accompanied by a male relative, and girls’ schools have been closed.

And, despite their pledges of no reprisals, there have already been reports of Taliban seizing property, hunting down government workers and journalists and attacking crowds of civilians.

At the same time, the Taliban was showing indications that it was, at least for the moment, adopting a more tolerant stance regarding the role of women and girls. Unicef, the United Nations’ children’s organization, said one of its representatives met a health commissioner on Monday in Herat and reported that he requested that women who work for the health department return to work.

But Unicef also reported mixed messages on questions of education for girls: in some areas, local Taliban authorities said they were waiting for guidance from leaders, in others they said they wanted schools for boys and for girls up and running.

“We are cautiously optimistic on moving forward,” Mustapha Ben Messaoud, Unicef’s chief of operations in Kabul, said, speaking by video link.

The United Nations secretary general, António Guterres, said on Monday that his organization was “receiving chilling reports of severe restrictions on human rights” throughout the country. “I am particularly concerned by accounts of mounting human rights violations against the women and girls of Afghanistan,” he said at an emergency meeting of the Security Council.

That made the work of Tolo’s female journalists, including a reporter out on the street, all the more notable.

Matthieu Aikins, a journalist who has reported widely on Afghanistan, described the Tolo interview as “remarkable, historic, heartening,” although he pointed out that during recent peace talks in Qatar, the Taliban had given access to female journalists from Afghanistan and other countries.

Afghanistan observers said that while it is not unheard-of for the Taliban to grant interviews to female journalists, including international correspondents from CNN and other outlets, they are rare inside the country.

The Taliban leadership appears to be carefully tending to the group’s public image, even as its members continue to preach a policy of exclusion that deprives women of rights and education inside the country.

The notion that the Taliban will suddenly change their ways has been greeted with deep skepticism.

“Please spare a thought for the people women and girls of Afghanistan,” Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, the executive director of U.N. Women, wrote on Twitter on Monday. “A tragedy unfolds in front of our eyes.”

Tolo News has been an independent force in the Afghanistan news media landscape, showing soap operas and reality shows that run counter to the Taliban’s conservative ethos.

After their recent capture of Kabul, the Taliban entered Tolo’s news compound, collecting all state-issued weapons, and offering to help secure the compound.

Saad Mohseni, the chief executive of Moby Media Group, which oversees Tolo News, told the BBC that the Taliban had been professional and polite. But he said he suspected that his station’s content, especially entertainment, would face eventual censorship.

“The Taliban are scrambling to take control,” he said.

nyt/bilefsky
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 11:42 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Interesting parallel – but not quite the same. Many Afghani women truly desire to obtain an education. Nor is the goal here the loss of cultural identity and assimilation into an Anglo culture. Muslims aren't strangers to "western" educational values and prior to the rise of the Taliban in the '90s women attended universities. It could be argued that during their first reign of power it was the Taliban which thought it was protecting "indigenous girls and women". We'll just have to see how this turns out.


1. If I showed you accounts of Native American Women who had a positive view or experience in the "Indian Schools" now so despised, would you change your mind about them?

2. What I suspect is happening is that the upper-class Afghani families have accepted Western culture. Tribal Afghans have kept to their traditional culture. This is a direct parallel to what happened in the United States, Canada and Australia. People who gave up their traditional culture were able to become "White" and be accepted. Indigenous people who cling to their traditional culture are still having problems.

3. Have you ever heard from a Afghani woman living in a traditional town? These women exist, but they have no voice in Western media. You are only hearing from a minority of women who accept the superiority of Western Culture. Afghani women who accept Western cultural values have a voice. Women who cling to the traditional values of indigenous cultures are ignored.

4. The idea that indigenous women in Afghanistan need White people to civilize them is very troubling. But that is exactly the argument that is being made here.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 12:03 pm
@maxdancona,
Yeah, okay, I'm not going to pursue this with you. Indigenous women who live in Afghanistan don't need white people and never did. "Afghani" refers to people who live in the place westerners call "Afghanistan". It was never a "nation", always a collection of tribes. They will work this out on their own.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2021 02:08 pm
Paying for a war

Amount President Harry Truman temporarily raised top tax rates to pay for Korean War: 92%.

Amount President Lyndon Johnson temporarily raised top tax rates to pay for Vietnam War: 77%.

Amount President George W. Bush cut tax rates for the wealthiest, rather than raise them, at outset of Afghanistan and Iraq wars: At least 8%.

Estimated amount of direct Afghanistan and Iraq war costs that the United States has debt-financed as of 2020: $2 trillion.

Estimated interest costs by 2050: Up to $6.5 trillion.

source
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 03:21 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The Taliban represent the the indigenous people of Afghanistan.

No they don't. They represent a minority extremist element of the indigenous people.


maxdancona wrote:
Obviously they have popular support from the indigenous people you don't see interviewed on the BBC (which has a Western slant). If they didn't have popular support, they wouldn't be able to take over so quickly.

Bad logic. The reason for their quick takeover was because they have strong outside support, and no one else in Afghanistan has any support.


maxdancona wrote:
I think there is a real disconnect between the way Americans think and the way indigenous Afghanis think. Americans assume that indigenous tribes from Afghanistan want to give up their traditional ways of living to become American.

It is interesting that you associate basic human rights with America.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 03:23 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The worthless coward was Trump, he'd already surrendered to the Taliban like Nixon surrendered to the Viet Nim.

Wrong. Mr. Nixon didn't surrender. He kept supporting South Vietnam.

South Vietnam was betrayed by the Democrats after they lynched Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ford was in too weak of a position, post-lynching, to defy them.

The Democrats tried to betray Central America the same way in the 1980s, but Mr. Reagan was in a stronger position and kept supporting the Contra freedom fighters despite the Democrats' treason.


izzythepush wrote:
That's what Republicans do, surrender.

Wrong. Traitor Joe isn't a Republican.


izzythepush wrote:
Biden was just carrying out his contractual obligations.

Nonsense. He is under no obligation to follow through on Mr. Trump's bad ideas.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2021 03:26 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
What was the alternative to surrendering to the Taliban?

The alternative was to continue to train the Afghan people to defend and protect themselves.


maxdancona wrote:
It isnt our country.

We have every right to defend ourselves when we are attacked.


maxdancona wrote:
It is my opinion that we should have left a long time ago.

Were you one of the progressives who cheered for the 9/11 attacks?


maxdancona wrote:
If we now believe that Colonialism is wrong, then we should stop doing it.

We do not believe that colonialism is wrong.

Civilized nations have the right to force inferior cultures to adopt civilized norms of behavior.
0 Replies
 
 

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