Afghanistan and Beyond

I expected it to take at least a month.

I don't suppose we were the only ones a bit overly optimistic.

That's what happens to our allies when they are abandoned by a worthless coward like Joe Biden.

The worthless coward was Trump, he’d already surrendered to the Taliban like Nixon surrendered to the Viet Nim.

That’s what Republicans do, surrender.

Biden was just carrying out his contractual obligations.

It was the same with Iraq. Bush ordered it to end, but Obama was the president who had to follow through.

What was the alternative to surrendering to the Taliban? It isnt our country. It is my opinion that we should have left a long time ago.

This is one case where I don't think Trump was wrong. If we now believe that Colonialism is wrong, then we should stop doing it.

Every outside observer says America gave up too much too soon in discussions with the Taliban.

Trump gave up loads with nothing in return. The Taliban were saying they had won back in April, they were right.

If you’re looking at the monumental cock up since 9/11 it all boils down to American hubris.

Just like in WW2 America claimed it knew better than anyone else. It refused advice from Russia, Britain and Iran.

Then Bush made sure it was doomed with his moronic axis of evil speech.

Was that too difficult, will I have to dumb it down a bit more?

Bin Laden was not from Afghanistan and was from Saudi Arabia. He was found and killed in Pakistan. The reasons for attacking Afghanistan are not much stronger than the "reasons" for attacking Iraq. I recall thinking Bush intended to strike a few blows in Afghanistan, declare revenge was served, then get out. Had no idea he intended to move in for a protracted stay. I don't know how many thought like me. I know I would have protested a lot had I known the truth of it. I did protest over Iraq, long and loud before that war launched, as my posts on a2k can attest. I told my gung ho brothers, "They are never going tp pacify that part of the world." Also told them, "You are not going to be happy with the way it ends."

I also agree with Izzy's take.

At the core of Izzy's opinion is a defense of Colonialism. The idea that White people needed to protect brown-skinned women from brown-skin men was always at the core of Colonialism. This was the British Empire's mission; to "civilize" indigenous peoples.

What exactly did America "give up" (remembering that Afghanistan was never ours to begin with).

This is another example of White people civilizing the indigenous people of the world.

Damn it, Izzy, why did you say something nice about women?

Izzy's suggestion that we should listen to Russia and Britain is comical. Both of these countries have failed to hold onto their empires.

You are a complete liar.

I have never supported colonialism.

You however, seem to support gross stupidity.

Even now, after the consequences are laid bare you still seem to be of the opinion that Bush shouldn’t have listened to advice from Russia, Britain or Iran!?! because it would be colonial.

America has plenty of colonies as it is, The Philippines, Diego Garcia, Bahrain to name a few so not only is that attitude wrong it’s also delusional.

If America had listened to Britain, Russia and Iran it wouldn’t have fucked up so comprehensively.

Yet even now Max is supporting Bush’s action because he doesn’t understand what actually happened and instead of wanting to learn he parrots delusional, moronic propaganda worthy of Oralloy.

Max should stick to Physics because he knows so little of anything else.

Max is talking out of his arse, he doesn’t understand what is happening and prefers fantasy to reality.

He is Oralloy.

How is this not Colonialism?

You see the Taliban (which has broad support among the Afghan people) as uncivilized. We have tried to use the military to put in an unpopular government that supports Western (i.e. White) values.

Britain did this in India China and The Middle East and Kenya etc. etc. Britain saw itself as bringing "civilization" to indigenous peoples.

What we were doing in Afghanistan is the same thing (or can you explain the difference). If the plan is to keep killing Afghanis and bombing homes until they start treating women correctly (according to Western values).... it is lunacy.

I’m starting to sympathise with Farmerman when some religious nutcase is talking a load of bollocks about science.

It’s like arguing with a primitive computer programme with about three responses if that.

He’s automatic response when talking to me is tostart banging on about Empire because it’s all he knows.

I doubt I can dumb things down enough for him to understand.

Talking to Russia, and Britain, and Iran wouldn’t have been about American imperialism but in understanding the character of the Afghan people and what the British and Russians did wrong. That way America could have avoided making the same mistakes.

It would have been the smart thing to do.

It didn’t happen though, and not only did America repeat the mistakes of the past it made some spectacular ones of its own like alienating Iran.

Yet Max seems to think the complete cock up from start to finish was a good thing.

Fatalistic, ignorant, dishonest, delusional and stupid.

I will not be reading any more of his posts.

I am going to stop the silly sniping... and try to ask the important question?

What should we have done differently in Afghanistan that would have changed this outcome?

There is a basic contradiction here... people are upset that Trump negotiated with the Taliban. The same people say we "should have asked for more". You can't "ask for more" if you aren't negotiating.

Everyone with any sense knew that the Taliban would eventually win because the Taliban had too much popular support in Afghanistan for any other outcome. I think the alternative plan was to keep killing people and destroying houses with drone strikes and a general military occupation until the Taliban promised to treat women better.

Killing and destroying to save women doesn't make sense on any planet. I am not very smart, so someone explain to me in common simple English so maybe I can get it. How do you force the Afghan people to accept the "civilization" that they don't want?

The model intervention was Kuwait. We went in with a very specific mission (force the Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait), we completed that mission, then we went home. Honestly if we had completely gone home instead of trying to keep a military presence in Saudi Arabia it would been a complete success. Instead that military presence was the seed for 9-11.

The model intervention was Sierra Leone.

For the record, this is the 17th time Izzy has said something like this (and I may have missed a couple)