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Random Search of Bags on NYC Subways: Constitutional?

 
 
goodfielder
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 12:50 am
Again I'm now much better informed. Thanks for that Debra_Law. Btw this isn't just "idle interest", I need to know this because our High Court has increasingly in recent years referred approvingly to some of the decisions of the US Supreme Court especially in search and seizure matters. It's good to have background information.
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Joe Nation
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 04:39 am
Yes, the definition of unreasonable searchs is about to be stretched as tight as Karl Rove's Sans-a-belt slacks.
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 05:24 am
I am of the opinion...search and profile.

It is an intrusion on our personal freedoms....and I hate that intrusion. But it is my opinion that we have already lost that battle.
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jespah
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 07:02 am
Ah, Terry, one of my favorite cases. As you can all see, the discussions of probable cause and reasonable suspicion have a long and complicated history. I bet within the next few years the Supreme Court will add to that. Which is pretty cool from a constitutional scholarship standpoint.

Now, onto practicalities. RP and I were discussing this last night. With unlimited funds (oh yeah, those are always just lying around .... Smile), NYC could potentially put a metal detector at every subway entrance. After all, far as I'm aware, the only way to get on the NYC subway is via a station -- there are no above-ground stops at bus-stop-like kiosks (if I'm wrong, please tell me). Look for, if it isn't patented already, some sort of system being invented to combine the turnstile with a metal detector -- but only if there are more attacks and there are some constitutional challenges. Otherwise, it'll be business as usual soon enough -- the NYC subway system is huge, complex and very, very busy. Searching a lot of people is simply neither practical nor cost-effective. Random searches are okay constitutionally but not terribly effective. Profiling is currently not favored constitutionally but I suspect that will change in the next Supreme Court term or two. Hence it will probably turn into a lot of threats of searches and checks, but the reality may very well be that those threats are generally empty, unless inspectors from Homeland Security are around or it's an election year.

But onto Boston. Here's where the whole system goes kerflooey. You see, in Boston, there are several above-ground stations. And, for buses, if you have your T (MBTA, our transportation system) pass, they let you onto the back of the bus if it's crowded, long as you vaguely wave your pass so the driver can see it. The pass is not swiped. Outbound on the green lines, the trolley is both above-ground and free, so no one is checking. You just get on and off. Late at night, when the bars are closing, after sporting events and other big social-type activities, and when the students first come back to town, they really pack 'em into the trolleys. You can barely breathe, you're sharing oxygen and allergens with Bob from Accounting in Burlington, DJ Newburyport and little Susie from westa Worcester. It's, in a word, very close.

How exactly can the MBTA/Homeland Security keep the trolleys running if everyone needs to be checked prior to getting on? After all, way outbound, perhaps, is not a great terrorist target, as the buildings aren't as close together and the areas are less crowded, but inbound brings you to shopping and governmental areas, plus big businesses. It's very, very crowded -- and this is queasy-making -- quite the target for someone wishing to take out large numbers of people. A trolley goes from Boston College, where everyone gets on above ground and ends up in Park Street, the center of town, with huge numbers of shoppers and commuters. How, practically speaking and searches and seizures aside, are those people going to be protected?

I wish I had the answer to this but I do not, and I suspect few people do, either, except for the ever-popular "do nothing until there's a problem, then organize a commission, throw a lot of money at them and, inevitably, do nothing".

And this ain't just a problem here. What about the historic trolleys in San Francisco? And what about buses? Many smaller towns and cities have buslines even if they don't have subway systems. Kinda gives ya a headache, eh?
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farmerman
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 08:40 am
Some tech data Ive seen from the Forensic Sciences end are
1 GC scanners that can sniff like a bomb sniffing dog. These , along with strong ammonia resolution computers (so they dont confuse the sniffer machinery with the Ammonia odor that a street person carries) can detect possible explosive combinations at the low molecular level. (All chemical explosives give off strong volatile compounds). Yes its gonna take money but, if the equipment were deployed in the stations AND the trains, however, what are our lives worth? . Im sure the costs, when added to the entire transit system amortization, would be in the 0.01 percent of debt service.

2Another thing for a counter to evidence suppression has been the use of vid cameras on patrol cars, In Pa, their use has greatly helped the prosecution of DUIs. Why not wire the cops with button cams and put the recorders on their utility belts. Compelling evidence has been bolsterdby vid cameras where anyone can see when someone is"weaving". Now , howabout if a cop sees a person in a station with a hikers frame and backpack. GOING INTO THE CITY. Then it looks like that person is purposely ducking the cops. A strong case for stop and search and close in GC wanding could be made. Of course, if it were a correct decision, the entire area is in immediate danger.

I say that protection of life is the focus concern. Let the cities carry extra insurance to cover the expected lawsuits from the getgo. Sooner or later, insurance companies will be unable to write policies for Municipalities and then itll wind up in the Supreme Court.

Is the Patriot Act (whadda godawful name) silent on "probable cause or reasonable suspicion"?
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Chai
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 10:10 am
I personally have no problem with my bags being searched, asked to step aside, anything it takes to ensure the safety of others

Debra is right - there should be metal detectors.

On looking at all the posts, it seems the bulk of us overwhelmingly have to problem with being searched.

The media has to stir the pot, as it always does, raising controversy where there generally is none.

Reminder - This is the price of freedom.
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Intrepid
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 10:11 am
I am in total agreement. However, it is ironic that freedom has to have a price ;-)
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Debra Law
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 11:50 am
Chai Tea wrote:
I personally have no problem with my bags being searched, asked to step aside, anything it takes to ensure the safety of others

Debra is right - there should be metal detectors.

On looking at all the posts, it seems the bulk of us overwhelmingly have to problem with being searched.

The media has to stir the pot, as it always does, raising controversy where there generally is none.

Reminder - This is the price of freedom.



Loss of freedom is the price of freedom?


It is far better to have a fixed security system for the mass transit system wherein ALL persons entering the subway must pass through a metal detector and ALL bags must be x-rayed. This is the best way to ensure that weapons and bombs can be detected before thousands of travelers and millions of dollars worth of property are placed at risk.

Roving checkpoints and random searches are the epitome of an oppressive and arbitrary government.
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farmerman
 
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Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 08:59 pm
metal detectors and xrays wont get a bomb if the bomber wishes it not to be found. The bomb can be made to look like a box of cannolis and the detonator cap can be put into a rosary crucifix. The signal can be in a flashlight or radio held by somebody else.
You gotta invest in chem scanners. to pick up the Nitrogen compounds
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AllThisBeauty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 09:47 pm
Bush is President because (in addition to his masterful use of divisive social issues) he convinced most Americans that there's a war going on. In times of war the usual rules do not apply. We must not descend into the pit, but we must survive.

If the choice is having our loved ones blown up on the way to work or school, or suspending certain legal protections, which do we choose?

Maybe there are other practical choices. As you evaluate them, be real and be human. Think "what if it were my kid, my loved one."
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jespah
 
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Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 07:57 am
Hot town, summer in the city:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/25/penn.station.ap/index.html
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 09:29 am
Intrepid wrote:
I am in total agreement. However, it is ironic that freedom has to have a price ;-)


Intrepid & Debra -
I don't think it's ironic, or that there's any loss of freedom. With any freedom comes responsibility that bears a cost.

We have the freedom to have children, but have the responsibilty to raise them as productive members of society.
We are free to speak our minds, but must be accountable for our words.

Everything we aspire to has a cost, and in this case a very small one, a little inconvenience.
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Intrepid
 
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Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 09:44 am
Chai Tea

People in countries that do not have freedom can also have children. They also have a responsibility to raise them.
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Chai
 
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Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 11:02 am
I'm speaking of individual freedom as well as freedoms granted in a countries constitution.

Freedom, as a concept, always has a cost.
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Intrepid
 
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Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 11:04 am
true, but nonetheless it is ironic ;-)
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 12:14 pm
Isn't that a song by Cheryl Crow? Very Happy

OK totally off the subject - But I was watching on the news this AM the footage of Lance in Paris, with his 3 children and Chreyl (I call her Cheryl because we're just so close) :wink:

Anyway, at one point it was showing her on camera holding one of the kids, hugging and such.

I just felt a little strange about this......

Yes, yes, I know he's divorced and all, but it just seemed, well, I don't know, wrong.
His ex-wife stood by him through so much, gave him three healthy children through artificial insemination, which I think says much for her.

To see another woman hold your children in such a way, while their father is receiving his hard earned awards which she, in no small part was key in, made me heartsick.
No, the ex should not have been there by his side, but the new love in his life is not the mother to his children, and shouldn't display such affection in front of the media toward them. Embarrassed

Now THAT's ironic.

I really wonder what the kids mother felt when she saw that. Sad
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lostark
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 06:47 pm
Re: Random Search of Bags on NYC Subways: Constitutional?
Debra_Law wrote:
kickycan wrote:
The 4th amendment to the constitution states:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

____________________


NEW YORK -- Police will begin conducting random searches of packages and backpacks carried by people entering city subways, Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced Thursday after a new series of bomb attacks in London.

Authorities said the system for the checks is still being developed, but the plan is for passengers carrying bags to be selected at random before they have passed through turnstiles.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly promised that officers would not engage in racial profiling, and that passengers will be free to "turn around and leave" rather than consent to a search. . . .

Authorities said there is also a possibility that checks will be conducted of some bus and train passengers.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/4753242/detail.html

I am just wondering...is this constitutional? How?



Those who consent to the search are allowed to travel on the public transportation system. Those who do not consent are "free to turn around and leave rather than consent to a search."

I don't think the issue is whether the search violates the Fourth Amendment. Obviously, consent is an exception to the warrant requirement and the Fourth Amendment is not implicated by a consent search.

The true issue is whether the government may require you to waive your protections under the Fourth Amendment in exchange for the other constitutionally protected rights: the right to travel and the right to equal protection under the law.

We are not talking about policing our borders from the flow of illegal immigrants or keeping our public roads safe from intoxicated drivers. Accordingly, examination of border cases and drunk-driving checkpoint cases might be helpful, but not conclusive.

In border cases, the traveling public is not subjected to SEARCHES in the absence of probable cause or individualized suspicion. On the contrary, the Court has made it clear that the purpose of a permanent checkpoint is NOT TO SEARCH. All that is required of the vehicle's occupants is a response to a brief question or two concerning residency and possibly the production of a document evidencing a right to be in the United States. Neither the vehicle nor its occupants are searched, and visual inspection of the vehicle is limited to what can be seen without a search.

See UNITED STATES v. MARTINEZ-FUERTE, 428 U.S. 543 (1976).....


Debra_Law, Thanks for a most enjoyable and informative read! As most (not all!) of the case law cited and the subsequent posts refer to search and seizure as it pertains to circumstances in which proper conduct for searches is defined for specific conditions, the conditions under which this thread is conducted have not been sorted out by the courts just yet. However, the game is on! See http://www.adc.org/index.php?id=2289 "ADC and NLG File Lawsuit Against MBTA Searches in Boston." (2004)

Also http://slate.msn.com/id/2123278/ "Are Subway Searches Legal?" It will be interesting to see how this sorts out. I'm hoping the courts will see through the hyperbole and stand behind the fourth amendment. For my part, I will not be subjected to a "random search" to get into the subway. I will not forfeit my rights that easily! Too many have given too much to give us what we have. I cannot ignore their sacrifice and feed the fear-mongering being perpetrated upon us.
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