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Random Search of Bags on NYC Subways: Constitutional?

 
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 01:06 pm
Quote:
Most of the Big City Dope Peddlers come to the Poconos by bus from the Big Apple. Local judges have thrown out several busts on grounds that the searches were random and unreasonable.

Evidently NYC detectives have greater latitude to search suspicious looking travelers.

Since the busts were disallowed, the local police ask for permission to search from all kinds of people.


And they bank on consent. Most people assume that when a cop asks them to open a bag, they have to do it, when that is not, in fact, the case. Without probable cause, an officer is only allowed to conduct a search thorough enough to make sure the person does not have a weapon.

That there might be a bomb, though, might greatly expand the sort of search that would be necessary to detect the presence of a weapon. Jespah's right -- this could get very interesting.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 01:32 pm
Re: Random Search of Bags on NYC Subways: Constitutional?
kickycan wrote:
The 4th amendment to the constitution states:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

____________________


NEW YORK -- Police will begin conducting random searches of packages and backpacks carried by people entering city subways, Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced Thursday after a new series of bomb attacks in London.

Authorities said the system for the checks is still being developed, but the plan is for passengers carrying bags to be selected at random before they have passed through turnstiles.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly promised that officers would not engage in racial profiling, and that passengers will be free to "turn around and leave" rather than consent to a search. . . .

Authorities said there is also a possibility that checks will be conducted of some bus and train passengers.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/4753242/detail.html

I am just wondering...is this constitutional? How?



Those who consent to the search are allowed to travel on the public transportation system. Those who do not consent are "free to turn around and leave rather than consent to a search."

I don't think the issue is whether the search violates the Fourth Amendment. Obviously, consent is an exception to the warrant requirement and the Fourth Amendment is not implicated by a consent search.

The true issue is whether the government may require you to waive your protections under the Fourth Amendment in exchange for the other constitutionally protected rights: the right to travel and the right to equal protection under the law.

We are not talking about policing our borders from the flow of illegal immigrants or keeping our public roads safe from intoxicated drivers. Accordingly, examination of border cases and drunk-driving checkpoint cases might be helpful, but not conclusive.

In border cases, the traveling public is not subjected to SEARCHES in the absence of probable cause or individualized suspicion. On the contrary, the Court has made it clear that the purpose of a permanent checkpoint is NOT TO SEARCH. All that is required of the vehicle's occupants is a response to a brief question or two concerning residency and possibly the production of a document evidencing a right to be in the United States. Neither the vehicle nor its occupants are searched, and visual inspection of the vehicle is limited to what can be seen without a search.

See UNITED STATES v. MARTINEZ-FUERTE, 428 U.S. 543 (1976).

With respect to roving patrols, the Court ruled that SEARCHES by roving patrols impinged so significantly on Fourth Amendment privacy interests that a search could be conducted without consent only if there was probable cause to believe that a car contained illegal aliens.

See ALMEIDA-SANCHEZ v. UNITED STATES, 413 U.S. 266 (1973).

The Court in Almeida-Sanchez said:

Quote:
Since neither this Court's automobile search decisions nor its administrative inspection decisions provide any support for the constitutionality of the stop and search in the present case, we are left simply with the statute that purports to authorize automobiles to be stopped and searched, without a warrant and "within a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States." It is clear, of course, that no Act of Congress can authorize a violation of the Constitution. But under familiar principles of constitutional adjudication, our duty is to construe the statute, if possible, in a manner consistent with the Fourth Amendment. Ashwander v. Tennessee Valley Authority, 297 U.S. 288, 348 (Brandeis, J., concurring).

It is undoubtedly within the power of the Federal Government to exclude aliens from the country. Chae Chan Ping v. United States, 130 U.S. 581, 603 -604. It is also without doubt that this power can be effectuated by routine inspections and searches of individuals or conveyances seeking to cross our borders. As the Court stated in Carroll v. United States: "Travellers may be so stopped in crossing an international boundary because of national self protection reasonably requiring one entering the country to identify himself as entitled to come in, and his belongings as effects which may be lawfully brought in." 267 U.S., at 154 . See also Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616 .

Whatever the permissible scope of intrusiveness of a routine border search might be, searches of this kind may in certain circumstances take place not only at the border itself, but at its functional equivalents as well. For [413 U.S. 266, 273] example, searches at an established station near the border, at a point marking the confluence of two or more roads that extend from the border, might be functional equivalents of border searches. For another example, a search of the passengers and cargo of an airplane arriving at a St. Louis airport after a nonstop flight from Mexico City would clearly be the functional equivalent of a border search. 4

But the search of the petitioner's automobile by a roving patrol, on a California road that lies at all points at least 20 miles north of the Mexican border, 5 was of a wholly different sort. In the absence of probable cause or consent, that search violated the petitioner's Fourth Amendment right to be free of "unreasonable searches and seizures."

It is not enough to argue, as does the Government, that the problem of deterring unlawful entry by aliens across long expanses of national boundaries is a serious one. The needs of law enforcement stand in constant tension with the Constitution's protections of the individual against certain exercises of official power. It is precisely the predictability of these pressures that counsels a resolute loyalty to constitutional safeguards. It [413 U.S. 266, 274] is well to recall the words of Mr. Justice Jackson, soon after his return from the Nuremberg Trials:


"These [Fourth Amendment rights], I protest, are not mere second-class rights but belong in the catalog of indispensable freedoms. Among deprivations of rights, none is so effective in cowing a population, crushing the spirit of the individual and putting terror in every heart. Uncontrolled search and seizure is one of the first and most effective weapons in the arsenal of every arbitrary government." Brinegar v. United States, 338 U.S. 160, 180 (Jackson, J., dissenting).

The Court that decided Carroll v. United States, supra, sat during a period in our history when the Nation was confronted with a law enforcement problem of no small magnitude - the enforcement of the Prohibition laws. But that Court resisted the pressure of official expedience against the guarantee of the Fourth Amendment. Mr. Chief Justice Taft's opinion for the Court distinguished between searches at the border and in the interior, and clearly controls the case at bar:

"It would be intolerable and unreasonable if a prohibition agent were authorized to stop every automobile on the chance of finding liquor and thus subject all persons lawfully using the highways to the inconvenience and indignity of such a search. Travellers may be so stopped in crossing an international boundary because of national self protection reasonably requiring one entering the country to identify himself as entitled to come in, and his belongings as effects which may be lawfully brought in. But those lawfully within the country, entitled to use the public highways, have a right to free passage without interruption or search unless there is [413 U.S. 266, 275] known to a competent official authorized to search, probable cause for believing that their vehicles are carrying contraband or illegal merchandise." 267 U.S., at 153 -154.


ALL OF US have a right to use public highways and public transportation. We are entitled to the right of free passage without interruption or search in the absence of probable cause to believe criminal activity is afoot.

See TERRY v. OHIO, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)

Quote:
The Fourth Amendment provides that "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated . . . ." This inestimable right of [392 U.S. 1, 9] personal security belongs as much to the citizen on the streets of our cities as to the homeowner closeted in his study to dispose of his secret affairs. For, as this Court has always recognized,

"No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law, than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law." Union Pac. R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891).

We have recently held that "the Fourth Amendment protects people, not places," Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 351 (1967), and wherever an individual may harbor a reasonable "expectation of privacy," id., at 361 (MR. JUSTICE HARLAN, concurring), he is entitled to be free from unreasonable governmental intrusion. Of course, the specific content and incidents of this right must be shaped by the context in which it is asserted. For "what the Constitution forbids is not all searches and seizures, but unreasonable searches and seizures." Elkins v. United States, 364 U.S. 206, 222 (1960). . . .

We do not retreat from our holdings that the police must, whenever practicable, obtain advance judicial approval of searches and seizures through the warrant procedure, see, e. g., Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967); Beck v. Ohio, 379 U.S. 89, 96 (1964); Chapman v. United States, 365 U.S. 610 (1961), or that in most instances failure to comply with the warrant requirement can only be excused by exigent circumstances, see, e. g., Warden v. Hayden, 387 U.S. 294 (1967) (hot pursuit); cf. Preston v. United States, 376 U.S. 364, 367 -368 (1964). But we deal here with an entire rubric of police conduct - necessarily swift action predicated upon the on-the-spot observations of the officer on the beat - which historically has not been, and as a practical matter could not be, subjected to the warrant procedure. Instead, the conduct involved in this case must be tested by the Fourth Amendment's general proscription against unreasonable searches and seizures. 17

. . . Our evaluation of the proper balance that has to be struck in this type of case leads us to conclude that there must be a narrowly drawn authority to permit a reasonable search for weapons for the protection of the police officer, where he has reason to believe that he is dealing with an armed and dangerous individual, regardless of whether he has probable cause to arrest the individual for a crime. The officer need not be absolutely certain that the individual is armed; the issue is whether a reasonably prudent man in the circumstances would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger. Cf. Beck v. Ohio, 379 U.S. 89, 91 (1964); Brinegar v. United States, 338 U.S. 160, 174 -176 (1949); Stacey v. Emery, 97 U.S. 642, 645 (1878). 23 And in determining whether the officer acted reasonably in such circumstances, due weight must be given, not to his inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or "hunch," but to the specific reasonable inferences which he is entitled to draw from the facts in light of his experience. . . .

The sole justification of the search in the present situation is the protection of the police officer and others nearby, and it must therefore be confined in scope to an intrusion reasonably designed to discover guns, knives, clubs, or other hidden instruments for the assault of the police officer.

The scope of the search in this case presents no serious problem in light of these standards. Officer McFadden patted down the outer clothing of petitioner and his two companions. He did not place his hands in their pockets or under the outer surface of their garments until he had [392 U.S. 1, 30] felt weapons, and then he merely reached for and removed the guns. He never did invade Katz' person beyond the outer surfaces of his clothes, since he discovered nothing in his pat-down which might have been a weapon. Officer McFadden confined his search strictly to what was minimally necessary to learn whether the men were armed and to disarm them once he discovered the weapons. He did not conduct a general exploratory search for whatever evidence of criminal activity he might find.


RANDOM searches of citizens are not allowed. "Where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where in the course of investigating this behavior he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him."

Here's a case where a border patrol officer squeezed and physically manipulated the bag of a bus passenger, obtained consent to search the bag, and found illegal drugs. The manipulation of the bag was in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

BOND v. UNITED STATES, (Decided April 17, 2000):

Quote:
Petitioner was seated four or five rows from the back of the bus. As Agent Cantu inspected the luggage in the compartment above petitioner's seat, he squeezed a green canvas bag and noticed that it contained a "brick-like" object. Petitioner admitted that the bag was his and agreed to allow Agent Cantu to open it.1 Upon opening the bag, Agent Cantu discovered a "brick" of methamphetamine. The brick had been wrapped in duct tape until it was oval-shaped and then rolled in a pair of pants. . . .

The Fourth Amendment provides that "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated ... ." A traveler's personal luggage is clearly an "effect" protected by the Amendment. See United States v. Place, 462 U. S. 696, 707 (1983). Indeed, it is undisputed here that petitioner possessed a privacy interest in his bag. . . .

Physically invasive inspection is simply more intrusive than purely visual inspection. For example, in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U. S. 1, 17-18 (1968), we stated that a "careful [tactile] exploration of the outer surfaces of a person's clothing all over his or her body" is a "serious intrusion upon the sanctity of the person, which may inflict great indignity and arouse strong resentment, and is not to be undertaken lightly." Although Agent Cantu did not "frisk" petitioner's person, he did conduct a probing tactile examination of petitioner's carry-on luggage. Obviously, petitioner's bag was not part of his person. But travelers are particularly concerned about their carry-on luggage; they generally use it to transport personal items that, for whatever reason, they prefer to keep close at hand.


See Footnote 1: The Government has not argued here that petitioner's consent to Agent Cantu's opening the bag is a basis for admitting the evidence.

Why didn't the government argue that the passenger's subsequent consent to search negated the alleged constitutional violation? BECAUSE, a violation was complete the moment the unconstitutional search (the physical manipulation of bag) occurred.

It is clear that the traveling public have a reasonable expectation of privacy in bags they carry and they are protected by the Fourth Amendment. But, may the City require public transportation passengers to consent to the search of their bags or waive the right to travel via public transportation? May the City deny access to a public place, e.g., the subway, simply because the traveler refuses consent to search his bag?


RIGHT TO TRAVEL; RIGHT TO REMAIN IN A PUBLIC PLACE:

See CITY OF CHICAGO v. MORALES (Decided June 10, 1999):

Quote:
In 1992, the Chicago City Council enacted the Gang Congregation Ordinance, which prohibits "criminal street gang members" from "loitering" with one another or with other persons in any public place. The question presented is whether the Supreme Court of Illinois correctly held that the ordinance violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Federal Constitution. . . .

. . . the United States recognizes, the freedom to loiter for innocent purposes is part of the "liberty" protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. 19 We have expressly identified this "right to remove from one place to another according to inclination" as "an attribute of personal liberty" protected by the Constitution. Williams v. Fears, 179 U. S. 270, 274 (1900); see also Papachristou v. Jacksonville, 405 U. S. 156, 164 (1972). 20 Indeed, it is apparent that an individual's decision to remain in a public place of his choice is as much a part of his liberty as the freedom of movement inside frontiers that is "a part of our heritage" Kent v. Dulles, 357 U. S. 116, 126 (1958), or the right to move "to whatsoever place one's own inclination may direct" identified in Blackstone's Commentaries. 1 W. Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England 130 (1765). 21


APTHEKER v. SECRETARY OF STATE, 378 U.S. 500 (1964):

Quote:
The right to travel at home and abroad is an important aspect of liberty of which a citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law. Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116 , followed. Congress could have chosen less drastic means of achieving the national security objective without such sweeping abridgment of liberty.

In 1958 in Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116, 127 , this Court declared that the right to travel abroad is "an important aspect of the citizen's `liberty'" guaranteed in the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment. The Court stated that:


"The right to travel is a part of the `liberty' of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. . . . Freedom of movement across frontiers in either direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage. Travel abroad, like travel within the country, . . . may be as close to the heart of the [378 U.S. 500, 506] individual as the choice of what he eats, or wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values." 5 Id., at 125-126.

In Kent, however, the Court concluded that Congress had not conferred authority upon the Secretary of State to deny passports because of alleged Communist beliefs and associations. Therefore, although the decision protected the constitutional right to travel, the Court did not examine "the extent to which it can be curtailed." Id., at 127. . . .

Although previous cases have not involved the constitutionality of statutory restrictions upon the right to travel [378 U.S. 500, 508] abroad, there are well-established principles by which to test whether the restrictions here imposed are consistent with the liberty guaranteed in the Fifth Amendment. It is a familiar and basic principle, recently reaffirmed in NAACP v. Alabama, 377 U.S. 288, 307 , that "a governmental purpose to control or prevent activities constitutionally subject to state regulation may not be achieved by means which sweep unnecessarily broadly and thereby invade the area of protected freedoms."

. . . .

"[E]ven though the governmental purpose be legitimate and substantial, that purpose cannot be pursued by means that broadly stifle fundamental personal liberties when the end can be more narrowly achieved. The breadth of legislative abridgment must be viewed in the light of less drastic means for achieving the same basic purpose."

. . .

That Congress under the Constitution has power to safeguard our Nation's security is obvious and unarguable. Cf. Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez, 372 U.S. 144, 159 -160. As we said in Mendoza-Martinez, "while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact." Id., at 160. At the same time the Constitution requires that the powers of government "must be so exercised as not, in attaining a permissible end, unduly to infringe" a constitutionally protected freedom. Cantwell v. Connecticut, supra, at 304. . . .

It is relevant to note that less than a month after the decision in Kent v. Dulles, supra, President Eisenhower sent a message to Congress stating that: "Any limitations on the right to travel can only be tolerated in terms of overriding requirements of our national security, and must be subject to substantive and procedural guaranties." Message from the President - Issuance of Passports, H. Doc. No. 417, 85th Cong., 2d Sess.; 104 Cong. Rec. 13046. The legislation which the President proposed did not make membership in a Communist organization, without more, a disqualification for obtaining a passport. S. 4110, H. R. 13318, 85th Cong., 2d Sess. Irrespective of views as to the validity of this or other such proposals, they demonstrate the conviction of the Executive Branch that our national security can be adequately protected by means which, when compared with 6, are more discriminately tailored to the constitutional liberties of individuals. . . .

The prohibition against travel is supported only by a tenuous relationship between the bare fact of organizational membership and the activity Congress sought to proscribe. . . .

Since this case involves a personal liberty protected by the Bill of Rights, we believe that the proper approach to legislation curtailing that liberty must be that adopted by this Court in NAACP v. Button, 371 U.S. 415 , and Thornhill v. Alabama, 310 U.S. 88. . . .

For essentially the same reasons this Court had concluded that the constitutionality of the statute in Thornhill v. Alabama should be judged on its face:

"An accused, after arrest and conviction under such a statute [on its face unconstitutionally abridging freedom of speech], does not have to sustain the burden of demonstrating that the State could not constitutionally have written a different and specific statute covering his activities as disclosed by the charge and the evidence introduced against him." 310 U.S., at 98 . 15

Similarly, since freedom of travel is a constitutional liberty closely related to rights of free speech and association, we believe that appellants in this case should not be required to assume the burden of demonstrating that Congress could not have written a statute constitutionally prohibiting their travel.



Similarly, the City of New York seeks to prohibit persons from traveling on the public subway system solely because they refuse to consent to a search that would otherwise be unconstitutional in the absence of consent.


I believe the requirement that people consent to a search in exchange for the right to use public transportation violates the doctrine of unconstitutional conditions.

This doctrine holds that the government may not require a person to give up a right protected by the constitution in exchange for a discretionary benefit conferred by the government.

For example, the government generally may not require a property owner to give up a portion of his property rights as a condition of receiving a building permit. The reason for such a doctrine is clear. If government may compel the surrender of one constitutional right as a condition of its favor, it may, in like manner, compel surrender of all. It is inconceivable that guaranties embedded in the Constitution of the United States may be thus manipulated out of existence.

See Doctrine of Unconstitutional Conditions in the USA.

See also FROST v. RAILROAD COMMISSION OF STATE OF CALIFORNIA, 271 U.S. 583 (1926):

Quote:
It would be a palpable incongruity to strike down an act of state legislation which, by words of express divestment, seeks to strip the citizen of rights guaranteed by the federal Constitution, but to uphold an act by which the same result is accomplished under the guise of a surrender of a right in exchange for a valuable privilege which the state threatens otherwise to withhold. It is not necessary to challenge the proposition that, as a general rule, the state, having power to deny a privilege altogether, may grant it upon such conditions as it sees fit to impose. But the power of the state in that respect is not [271 U.S. 583, 594] unlimited, and one of the limitations is that it may not impose conditions which require the relinquishment of constitutional rights. If the state may compel the surrender of one constitutional right as a condition of its favor, it may, in like manner, compel a surrender of all. It is inconceivable that guaranties embedded in the Constitution of the United States may thus be manipulated out of existence.


Accordingly, I would base the outcome of this matter on the Doctrine of Unconstitutional Conditions that requires individuals to waive their protections under the Fourth Amendment in exchange for the valuable privilege of traveling on the subway wherein both travel and the right to remain in a public place are also regarded as a valuable rights protected by the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 01:34 pm
au1929 wrote:
Constitutional or not it would be criminal if everything possible was not done to thwart a terrorist attack. Up to and including profiling.

We've had a long discussion on the dangers (both social and physical) of profiling.

Just imagine a young father that can't pay for his kid's cancer treatment, and what he might be willing to do.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 03:00 pm
Quote:
Does Ma Barker ring a bell? Not to suggest that she was a terrorist, only that age and sex does not matter. Terrorism knows no bounds so age is not a factor. Sad but true.


Intrepid- I hear what you are saying, but the reality is that the police can't search everybody, or cities would come to a grinding halt. There has to be some way to maximize the effectiveness of the searches, and, sad but true, profiling is the most efficient way for the law to get "more bang for their buck". I think that in addition, there needs to be random searches of everyone else.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 03:57 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
You can legally search either everyone, or random people on a set criteria (e.g., every 20 people). You can't do discretionary searches (e.g., young arab males).


Not true. When applying a constitutional analysis, there is a difference between SEARCHES and SEIZURES.

You are failing to distinquish between checkpoint stops (temporary seizures) for a legitimate government purpose, i.e. sobriety checkpoints, and SEARCHES.


Take a look at CITY OF INDIANAPOLIS et al. v. EDMOND et al. and DELAWARE v. PROUSE, 440 U.S. 648 (1979).
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 04:07 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
I think it is. If you were on a subway and someone had a bomb, the random check may save your life.

If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't be pissed. I think that the "one bad apple spoils the bushel" rule applies here. One bad (or 2 whatever) does something artocious and now we all have to pay for it.


Not true.

The random SEARCH of passenger bags will NOT save your life. Sure, ordinary law-abiding citizens will likely comply at the expense of their constitutional freedoms--but it won't deter a terrorist bomber. If someone is carrying a bomb and approached by an officer requesting submission to a random search, they can refuse consent for the search. They can leave the public subway area and go to another subway entrance where he might NOT be subjected to a random search. This is NONSENSE, plain and simple.

If NYC wants to keep their subways "safe," they need to install metal detectors, x-ray machines, and security personnel at the entrance of every subway access.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 04:16 pm
roger wrote:
Consent to search seems implicit in buying an airline ticket. I guess it's going to pass the test.


How so?

When you buy a ticket and walk through the metal detector and allow your carry-on luggage to be x-rayed . . . you're not consenting to a search. You're just consenting to walk through a metal detector and having your luggage x-rayed.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 04:41 pm
Several notes:

First, great briefing as usual Debra. Great reading.

Second, Yankee Stadium (I don't know about Shea) instituted first, a search everybody's bag program in 2002, that lasted about three games wherein they instituted the NO bags rule.

"You gotta take dat backpack acrooss the street to da bars who will hold it for until after the game for five bucks."

Purses, jackets, and anything that is not a bag, they still search as you enter. They make you take off your hat. The no bag rule would not, repeat not, work on the subway where everybody has at least one bag if not two.


..http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/2738/theapassage2au.th.jpghttp://img321.imageshack.us/img321/7309/ridinghomefriends7zf.th.jpghttp://img321.imageshack.us/img321/4360/threesleep3mc.th.jpg

http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/3098/bag18nr.jpg
Three, just in passing, I've just started running again and when I finish up at 79th and Central Park West, I get on a C train to head up town. In order to avoid getting chilled, I tie a sweatshirt around my waist while running and put it on in the subway. Night before last I couldn't figure out why people were giving me the once over, besides the grossness of the overweight guy in the runnings shorts I mean, then it hit me....


I was wearing too much clothing and had sweat pouring down my face.

Joe(what does a terrorist sweat like?)Nation
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 05:32 pm
Quote:
They can leave the public subway area and go to another subway entrance where he might NOT be subjected to a random search. This is NONSENSE, plain and simple.


The thougt crossed my mind, but I remembered that our involvement in public safety is meant to be to feel safe, not to help make things safe. (Which has its uses, good and ill.)

patio(I hope terrorists don't sweat like Joe Nation, for everybody's sake)dog
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 06:43 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
You can legally search either everyone, or random people on a set criteria (e.g., every 20 people). You can't do discretionary searches (e.g., young arab males).


Not true. When applying a constitutional analysis, there is a difference between SEARCHES and SEIZURES.

You are failing to distinquish between checkpoint stops (temporary seizures) for a legitimate government purpose, i.e. sobriety checkpoints, and SEARCHES.


Take a look at CITY OF INDIANAPOLIS et al. v. EDMOND et al. and DELAWARE v. PROUSE, 440 U.S. 648 (1979).


Quite so, Debra. I was referring to regulatory stops. Thanks for clarifying that.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 06:52 pm
Hmmm - I got perfectly used to searches of bags in London - prior to entering places like art galleries and museums etc. - because of the IRA.

All else aside, it would be a helluvan undertaking on transport.


(I guess this is a bookmark - it is great reading the legal discussions on these threads)
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 07:09 pm
Just a teeny thread drift if I may but I have to ask:

Debra_Law posted:

Quote:
RANDOM searches of citizens are not allowed. "Where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where in the course of investigating this behavior he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him."


My reading of this is that the probable cause the police officer develops is subjective, that is, it's in his or her mind and as indicated it's based on their experience, knowledge, training, etc (I assume). First question - does the court determine probable cause based on the officer's subjective experiences in the matter?

From there - I have read about the need for "articulation" by the officer to prove probable cause. So second question - is this "articulation" necessary to explain to the court the reasoning for the development of probable cause?

In my jurisdiction police are subjected to an objective standard not a subjective one. Police must have a "reasonable cause to suspect" which would, if the same facts were observed by a non-police officer (a "reasonable person" not a hyper-suspicious one), create the same suspicion. If not then it might (the court has discretion to admit or exclude) see the evidence ruled inadmissible.

Sorry if this is too much of a thread drift.

As you were Very Happy
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 07:14 pm
It's a good drift.


I talked quite a bit about this with a couple of law students, and I believe that you're right that the reason has to be specific -- and requiring that the reason for the stop be clearly articulably is presumably an assurance thereof.

Or not. I dunno either... Certainly can't cite a case...
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 07:40 pm
Just wanted to stop in and thank everyone for turning my kernel of a possible idea for a possibly interesting topic into an actual interesting topic. Debra Law especially. I was hoping that if I started to build it, you'd all come. And you all did.

Thanks. Carry on.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 07:48 pm
Tell me somone please: what's the point in searching
the handbag of an old lady, while you can buy machine guns around the corner quite freely?
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 09:24 pm
wnbc.com wrote:
Officials wouldn't immediately say how frequently the checks would occur. The checks are scheduled to be in place by rush hour on Friday morning.

so did any a youze noo yawkas get searched yet?
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 09:36 pm
I haven't been on the subway for a few days. I've been walking to work. I will, however, be taking the subway tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 10:02 pm
goodfielder wrote:
Just a teeny thread drift if I may but I have to ask:

Debra_Law posted:

Quote:
RANDOM searches of citizens are not allowed. "Where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where in the course of investigating this behavior he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him."


My reading of this is that the probable cause the police officer develops is subjective, that is, it's in his or her mind and as indicated it's based on their experience, knowledge, training, etc (I assume). First question - does the court determine probable cause based on the officer's subjective experiences in the matter?


No. See below.


Quote:
From there - I have read about the need for "articulation" by the officer to prove probable cause. So second question - is this "articulation" necessary to explain to the court the reasoning for the development of probable cause?


Yes, but only to explain "reasonable suspicion," not "probable cause." If the officer's brief detention and limited search is contested in court, let's say in a Motion to Supress the evidence the officer subsequently discovered, the court will review the actions of the officer by the reasonable person standard -- whether a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have stopped the individuals and feared for his safety, based on the articulable facts presented by the officer. This is called a "Terry Stop," based on Terry v. Ohio. The officer's experience be a part of the articulable facts (i.e., "I observed two individuals acting suspicious near the warehouse entrance. The were looking around nervously. I observed a bulge near in the individual's waist, which based upon my experience I felt might have been a weapon ...," etc.).

Quote:
In my jurisdiction police are subjected to an objective standard not a subjective one. Police must have a "reasonable cause to suspect" which would, if the same facts were observed by a non-police officer (a "reasonable person" not a hyper-suspicious one), create the same suspicion. If not then it might (the court has discretion to admit or exclude) see the evidence ruled inadmissible.


Sounds like the same standard as here.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jul, 2005 11:21 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Tell me somone please: what's the point in searching
the handbag of an old lady, while you can buy machine guns around the corner quite freely?


Where? I mean, we've got some relatively unrestrictive laws in NM, but machine guns?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jul, 2005 12:35 am
goodfielder wrote:
Just a teeny thread drift if I may but I have to ask:

Debra_Law posted:

Quote:
RANDOM searches of citizens are not allowed. "Where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where in the course of investigating this behavior he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him."


My reading of this is that the probable cause the police officer develops is subjective, that is, it's in his or her mind and as indicated it's based on their experience, knowledge, training, etc (I assume). First question - does the court determine probable cause based on the officer's subjective experiences in the matter?


A Terry Stop does not require "probable cause." A lesser standard of "reasonable suspicion" (also called "articulable suspicion") is required.

We do not use a "subjective" test--i.e., standing in the shoes of the officer of the officer in question; rather, we use an objective test from the perspective of a "reasonable officer."

We must look at the events as would a reasonable police officer at the time the event is unfolding (not through hindsight). Under all the facts and circumstances present, we must ask what would a reasonable police officer reasonably suspect in light of his or her training and experience.

Quote:
From there - I have read about the need for "articulation" by the officer to prove probable cause. So second question - is this "articulation" necessary to explain to the court the reasoning for the development of probable cause?


Again, probable cause is the standard used for a full-blown seizure--an arrest. For a Terry Stop (an investigative stop), all that is required is a reasonable (articulable) suspicion (not a mere hunch). So long as the stopping officer can articulate facts and circumstances that would lead an objectively reasonable officer to suspect that criminal activity is afoot, the "reasonable suspicion" standard is met.

Example:

Officer notices a vehicle pulling out of the parking lot of a drinking establishment. Officer follows the vehicle. Officer sees the vehicle weaving in the lane. Based on the facts and circumstances (the officer's observations), a reasonable officer would have an articulable suspicion that the driver is under the influence of alcohol.

The officer STOPS the vehicle to investigate.

The officer approaches the driver's window and asks the driver to produce his license and vehicle registration. The officer smells a strong odor of alcohol emanating from the driver's breath. The officer notices that the driver's eyes are bloodshot and the driver is slurring his words. The officer requires the driver to submit to field sobriety tests which the driver fails.

The officer has PROBABLE CAUSE to arrest the driver for DUI.

However, if the officer saw the vehicle exit the parking lot of a drinking establishment but did not observe any irratic driving or weaving, it would be difficult for the officer to articulate a reasonable suspicion to justify the stop. If the STOP is unconstitutional, then the fruits of the tainted investigatory stop could be suppressed and there would be no admissible evidence for the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the driver was guilty of DUI.
0 Replies
 
 

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