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John Roberts JR to supreme court

 
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2005 03:54 am
Sturgis wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Maybe standards are not the same in the UK, and what we consider "over the edge of the cliff liberals" would be your equivalent of Communists, which of course, were purged from the country in the McCarthy era.


Quote:
He has quite a bit of experience and familiarity already with The Supreme Court having worked briefly for Rehnquist and also having argued (pled) cases before the 9 justices. Except for the Insanity Fringe Liberals and the War Is Peace Conservatives most folks from both sides of the aisle seem to think he will be a good choice. Of course once those confirmation hearings get started, who knows what goodies will be exhumed from his past.


What? So you're classing all the Democrat Party as "Insanity Fringe Liberals"? Because what I've heard, the Democrat Party in general doesn't like the idea, of course, that could be just down to Party affiliation, rather than whether they're liberal or not.

Still, of the 9 Judges, how many liberals are there really?

And shouldn't one of them be truly non-partisan to make things evenly balanced?



Where to start...I know! Let me start by stating that I live in The U.S. not in The U.K. I was born and raised here. I live in Rutland Vermont. It's a pleasant little burg, friendly, quiet, full if charm.


Yeah, I live in the UK, that's why I said perhaps OUR standards are different from YOURS. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

Quote:
Most interesting how you pounced upon the Insanity Fringe Liberals;


Well, to be fair, he was talking about the "Insanity Fringe Liberals" and I was replying to that, and I was wondering, because of the wording he used, whether he meant the entire Democratic Party.

Quote:
but, completely bypassed the comment I had about War Is Peace Conservatives.


I'm well aware of these people, thank you very much.

Quote:
My point was quite simply that both sides have people who will reject just about anyone who isn't a carbon copy of their own beliefs. Mr. Bush has submitted the name of a man who truly is a follower of the law as it is written. John Roberts is not a political pawn or puppet, he has nothing in his (at least surface) background to indicate that he has done anything based on political views so Roberts would indeed be the nonpartisan judge you are asking for.


As someone else said, he is a member of the Federalist Society.

In his lifetime, he has supported both George Bush's electoral campaigns and once worked for the Republican Ronald Reagan. He is opposed to abortion and governmental environmental regulations.

He may not be a political puppet, but his views are anything but non-partisan.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2005 05:53 am
au1929 wrote:
Finding someone who is non partisan or unbiased is as futile as Diogenese looking for an honest man.


You mean Diogenes "the Dog"? This was a man who never washed his clothes and masturbated in public... I am not sure he was either of those things either. Wink

TTF

p.s. Au - you went up 25 cool points in my book for making an ancient philosophy reference. Wink
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2005 06:04 am
Ticomaya wrote:
I found this humorous ...

Quote:
From the Progressive Action Network For American Progress
For Immediate Release


The Progressive Action Network For American Progress is extremely concerned by today's news that President Bush has selected ___JOHN ROBERTS___ as his nominee for the vacancy on the United States Supreme Court. Unlike outgoing Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, the widely respected and admired moderate consensus-building sensible mainstream compromisist, ___JOHN ROBERTS___ has a shocking record of extremely extreme fringe legal positions that fill us with grave concerns about ___HIS___ fitness for this critically crucial office.

Make no mistake: no one should be fooled by the administration's public relations efforts or ___JOHN ROBERTS___ 's seemingly "moderate" appearance. ___JOHN ROBERTS___ has a record that suggests that ___HE___ would deny women the right to reproductive choice, stop important life-saving medical stem cell research by extending the Patriot Act to draft their unwanted fetuses, and turn these conscripted fetuses over to dangerous tax-supported 'Creationist' religious indoctrination laboratories. The Supreme Court is a lifetime appointment, and America needs to know whether ___JOHN ROBERTS___ supports the GOP's secret plan of a Rush Limbaugh Jesus army of unwanted, unquestioning fetus zombies programmed to urinate on the Korans of Guantanamo detainees.

We should also point out that our opposition to ___JOHN ROBERTS___ has nothing to do with the nominee's race and/or gender. We at the Progressive Action Network For American Progress have long been on record of standing up for the civil rights of ___WHITE MEN___ , rights from which ___JOHN ROBERTS___ ironically, has benefitted. Sadly, rather than create programs and begin to work on the real problems that concern ___WHITE MEN___ , the Bush administration has cynically forwarded an unqualified, token candidate like ___JOHN ROBERTS___ to mask its callous indifference to the plight of the ___WHITE MAN___ community.

WHAT YOU CAN DO

In response to this shocking nomination, we here at the Progressive Action Network For American Progress are joining forces with other mainstream grassroots progressive activist organizations -- organizations like Peace Power Community Now Network, Grant Proposers for Justice, NairBusters, Out of Our Wombs!, UpChuck.org, ToothACHE, and Sitcom Producers for the American Way. Over the next few weeks we will be encouraging the Senate Judiciary Committee to take a close look at ___JOHN ROBERTS___ and ___HIS___ extremist views on the critical legal issues that face all of us. While we will be working hard to get out the word in Washington, ordinary progressive citizens like you can do your part as well. First, write your newspaper and/or Senator and let them know that you will not stand by idly while Bush and Company install a pseudo-" ___WHITE MAN___" like ___JOHN ROBERTS___ on the nation's highest court. Here's a letter to get you started!

The Progressive Action Network For American Progress is extremely concerned by today's news that President Bush has selected ___JOHN ROBERTS___ as his nominee for the vacancy on the United States Supreme Court. Unlike outgoing Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, the widely respected and admired moderate consensus-building sensible mainstream compromisist, ___JOHN ROBERTS___ has a shocking record of extremely extreme fringe legal positions that fill us with grave concerns about ___HIS___ fitness for this critically crucial office.

Make no mistake: no one should be fooled by the administration's public relations efforts or ___JOHN ROBERTS___ 's seemingly "moderate" appearance. ___JOHN ROBERTS___ has a record that suggests that ___HE___ would deny women the right to reproductive choice, stop important life-saving medical stem cell research by extending the Patriot Act to draft their unwanted fetuses, and turn these conscripted fetuses over to dangerous tax-supported 'Creationist' religious indoctrination laboratories. The Supreme Court is a lifetime appointment, and America needs to know whether ___JOHN ROBERTS___ supports the GOP's secret plan of a Rush Limbaugh Jesus army of unwanted, unquestioning fetus zombies programmed to urinate on the Korans of Guantanamo detainees.

We should also point out that our opposition to ___JOHN ROBERTS___ has nothing to do with the nominee's race and/or gender. We at the Progressive Action Network For American Progress have long been on record of standing up for the civil rights of ___WHITE MEN___ , rights from which ___JOHN ROBERTS___ ironically, has benefitted. Sadly, rather than create programs and begin to work on the real problems that concern ___WHITE MEN___ , the Bush administration has cynically forwarded an unqualified, token candidate like ___JOHN ROBERTS___ to mask its callous indifference to the plight of the ___WHITE MAN___ community.

WHAT YOU CAN DO

In response to this shocking nomination, we here at the Progressive Action Network For American Progress are joining forces with other mainstream grassroots progressive activist organizations -- organizations like Peace Power Community Now Network, Grant Proposers for Justice, NairBusters, Out of Our Wombs!, UpChuck.org, ToothACHE, and Sitcom Producers for the American Way. Over the next few weeks we will be encouraging the Senate Judiciary Committee to take a close look at ___JOHN ROBERTS___ and ___HIS___ extremist views on the critical legal issues that face all of us. While we will be working hard to get out the word in Washington, ordinary progressive citizens like you can do your part as well. First, write your newspaper and/or Senator and let them know that you will not stand by idly while Bush and Company install a pseudo-" ___WHITE MAN___" like ___JOHN ROBERTS___ on the nation's highest court. Here's a letter to get you started!


Link.


This is funny Tico - but in all fairness you know the same letter went out in support of the nominee. We seem incapable at this point in history to look beyond the two party system that we created and venerate.

It is sad.

TTF
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2005 10:13 am
To make a correction....apparently our nominee is not a member of the Federalist Society.

How much that may or may not mean is uncertain as a number of Federalist Society members were as surprised to hear this as was I.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 02:48 am
blatham wrote:
"Follower of the law as it is written"...ya gotta like this wording. As if literalism is mandated within the constitution itself as the proper, or only, lens through which it ought to be understood.

You make it sound as if one needs a mandate before one can assert that laws, including the constitution, actually mean what they say. One doesn't. Moreover, if the mainstream judicial philosophy disagrees, if it holds that the constituion only establishes abstract principles of political philosophy, and that it's up to the courts to give real-world meaning to those abstract principles -- why wouldn't one conclude that the mainstream is the problem, and its originalist dissenters are the (imperfect) solution? There are many reasons why I wish that one day I'll wake up and find that the Bush presidency was just a bad dream. Mr. Bush's preference for originalists is not one of those reasons. (Full disclosure: The author of this post is an originalist.)

As for the general issue about partisanship Sturgis has raised, the editorials and op-ed commentaries of the New York Times by and large seem to agree with him. They do mention Roberts' conservative outlook, but mostly emphasize his competence, his moderation, and his pragmatism. Indeed, the articles I have read indicate that they really like him so far. Note, in particular, their first commentaries on him after his nomination was announced: Court Nominee's Life Is Rooted in Faith and Respect for Law, as well as In His Opinions, Nominee Favors Judicial Caution[/i]. The New York Times is not your typical conservative partisan shill, so I respectfully submit that their sympathy for Roberts means something.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 07:51 am
thomas

A pleasure to see you.
Quote:
There are many reasons why I wish that one day I'll wake up and find that the Bush presidency was just a bad dream.
We've had the same dream. On waking, one looks at the tousled head on the other pillow, ruefully remembering all that went on, and one just feels sooooo defiled and dirty. All in all, a very catholic response yet, curiously, I doubt Scalia shares it with us.

Quote:
You make it sound as if one needs a mandate before one can assert that laws, including the constitution, actually mean what they say. One doesn't.

If a law, or a constitutional passage, were to say "2 plus 2 equals 4" or "Congress shall pass no law abridging freedom of speech" then we would have a pretty good handle on what it is the law says and what those sentences mean. But of course it isn't so simple. If in one's family, there's a clearly stated rule that "one must not hit one's brothers" then that's clear enough. But what if one has sisters too? Perhaps born after the rule was put into place? One could hew to the letter of that family law and fight doggedly against a 'modernist' extrapolation of inherant principle. But there are pretty good reasons to posit that such a strategy, as handily black and white at it is, and with its comforting nod to maintained connection with the 'good ole days', also invites the same potentially explosive consequence as does any similar anal-retention urge.

Quote:
Moreover, if the mainstream judicial philosophy disagrees, if it holds that the constitution only establishes abstract principles of political philosophy, and that it's up to the courts to give real-world meaning to those abstract principles -- why wouldn't one conclude that the mainstream is the problem, and its originalist dissenters are the (imperfect) solution?

I think you get tripped up here with the use of 'only'. Scalia himself, for example, shows some latitude on matters of race relations. Either solution, in extremis, looks quite unsuitable. So the issue looks to be one of rejecting absolutes, accepting imperfection, and then doing the best one can - but that means reference to basic principles. And it surely does also entail a reasonable acceptance of changing standards (I'd guess you have little difficulty with Kennedy's acknowledgement of what other high courts in the world have written).

I briefly considered joining the expected jihaad against Roberts, but have rejected that now. He appears to be an impressive fellow. We'll see if he is more extreme than he is being presented (including, by himself). That the christian right is all happy with the fellow doesn't bode well but god only knows what PR and future appointment agreements have been made between Rove and his base.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 08:26 am
thomas

Meant to add this link... http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/articles/050328on_onlineonly01

If you can get hold of the referenced issue, the piece on Scalia is very good, but this interview with the writer is well worthwhile too.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 08:33 am
blatham wrote:
thomas

A pleasure to see you.

You too, sir.

blatham wrote:
But of course it isn't so simple. If in one's family, there's a clearly stated rule that "one must not hit one's brothers" then that's clear enough. But what if one has sisters too? Perhaps born after the rule was put into place? One could hew to the letter of that family law and fight doggedly against a 'modernist' extrapolation of inherant principle.

Yes. That's why I'm calling originalism an 'imperfect' solution -- even though I have to wonder why you don't consider what I think is the obvious way out of your dilemma: Have the family recognize that its previous rule was incomplete, and change it. Moreover, while I recognize that your objections can pose problems in the abstract, I find that they apply to surprisingly few of today's hot-button issues, because those issues are older, not younger, than the constitution. Thus we know, for example, that the founding fathers:
  • did not consider the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment", including the death penalty for minors.
  • did not believe the constitution protected a right to die. (There were laws against suicide, and nobody challenged them as unconstitutional.)
  • did not believe the constitution protected a right to abort an embryo. (There were laws against abortion, and nobody challenged them as unconstitutional.)
  • did consider expressive conduct to be political speech protected by the First Amendment, and held a broad enough view of expressive conduct that flag-burning fits into it.
  • did not consider it a form of religious establishment for public officials to proclaim their Christian faith while performing public functions.
  • would not have considered it interstate commerce if a Californian cancer patient grew some weed for personal consumption in his own backyard and smoked it. The commerce clause in its original understanding does not authorize much of the federal government's "war on drugs."

You and I surely like some of the above bullet points and dislike others. I guess we might even agree which are which, and what the constitution ought to say where we reject its current language. But your analogy about 'sister born after provision was put in place' fits none of those issues. I don't deny that social change can profoundly affect the meaning of legal rules. But as a practical matter, it did not much affect the meaning of the American constitution's most controversial provisions, even when it affected people's opinions about them. I continue to believe that some of those provisions ought to be changed -- but it ought to happen through the amendment process, not re-interpretation.

PS: Thanks for the link -- will see if I can find the issue in the library to read the article.

PPS: After some Googling, I think I found the full article re-pubished at

http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&DocID=2291

(Copy and paste into address line -- it doesn't seem to work as a link.) Is that the one you read in the New Yorker?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 09:42 am
thomas

I'll get back here later. In the meantime, to correct an earlier correction, it does appear Roberts and the Federalist Society aren't strangers after all... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/24/AR2005072401201.html
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 10:40 am
More entertainment .... Parody on Robert's upcoming confirmation hearing.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 12:16 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
More entertainment .... Parody on Robert's upcoming confirmation hearing.

Laughing Good one!
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 12:41 pm
LOL, Tico!

<still laughin'>
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 01:03 pm
blatham wrote:
thomas

I'll get back here later. In the meantime, to correct an earlier correction, it does appear Roberts and the Federalist Society aren't strangers after all... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/24/AR2005072401201.html


i'm disappointed. if what the article says is true, well..., here we go again.

somehow it doesn't seem logical to be listed as a member of the steering committee in an organization you don't belong to.

bummer.
0 Replies
 
 

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