Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

Thank you, Momma Angel. You are already more than you know.

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Real Life,

Perhaps you can help me out. Frank and Mesquite keep asking how do you resolve the conflict of the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.

I am having a hard time. I had to research this because I know in my heart how it is resolved, but I can't put it into words. The research I found I read and reread and looked up the scriptures that went with it. I understood it. However, Mesquite and Frank do not feel the scripture backed up the claim. So, can you, will you, please explain the conflict of the Old Testament God and the New Testament God?

I'd be eternally grateful (eternally is used literally here! Woo Hoo!)

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Momma Angel wrote:

Real Life,

Perhaps you can help me out. Frank and Mesquite keep asking how do you resolve the conflict of the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.

I am having a hard time. I had to research this because I know in my heart how it is resolved, but I can't put it into words. The research I found I read and reread and looked up the scriptures that went with it. I understood it. However, Mesquite and Frank do not feel the scripture backed up the claim. So, can you, will you, please explain the conflict of the Old Testament God and the New Testament God?

I'd be eternally grateful (eternally is used literally here! Woo Hoo!)

It may not matter much what you tell Frank. If you read some of my discussions with him you will see that he can be quite set in his ways. I refer to our discussions of Moses and Pharaoh, and of Adam and Eve.

Of Mesquite I have no knowledge.

Even within the Old Testament, God is presented as a multi faceted Being. He is a God of grace, and a God of absolute holiness. He is eternal and yet he responds to our prayers.

The same God with the same characteristics is found in the New Testament.

So to say that the conflict lies between the Old and New Testaments is to create a false dichotomy.

Take either testament by itself and you have a God that is difficult to explain or fully understand. Because He is God.

We are like a bug trying to understand a skyscraper. Our pride tells us that we should be able to understand. Ego tells us that if we can't understand it , then it must not be so.

So, then many teachings of the Bible are tough to get our "logical" (we think we are. Ask any husband if his wife is. Ask any wife if her husband is. Ask any employee......Ask any teenager..........you get the idea. ) minds around. God is sovereign , yet He gave us free will. The Bible teaches both.

Will you be able to explain this to Frank's satisfaction? Mesquite's? Your own? Probably not.

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Ok, I guess I need to state what I mean a little more clearly.

I cannot argue with Frank that it appears that the God of the Old Testament is a harsher God; however, I do not believe He was "murderous, etc., as Frank does." I realize the Crucifixion of Christ changed the way things were. Used to be God of the Old Testament, sin, punishment. Now it's God of the New Testament, Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins, no punishment. That's what I mean. They appear to be a God of two temperaments shall we say? I know they are the same God and I understand the concept. I just can't explain it well.

And thanks so very much!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Right on Real Life! I enjoy your posts so much. Someday I hope I can be as articulate as you are in expressing your views.

Ditto, Momma! Rootin' right there with you (and fer ya, too :wink: )

Momma Angel wrote:

Now it's God of the New Testament, Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins, no punishment.

Somebody might misunderstand that, Momma: there's no punishment for those who come under Christ's "umbrella," but there will be The Last Punishment at the very end. For now, Jesus is, as it were, the "lightning rod," the deflector of wrath (bec. He absorbed it on the Cross for all who give Him their total allegiance). But the Bible says there is "an end to time." Then comes The Judgment.

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Exactly my Point Di! I am really in the learning stages and though I may be thinking that thought often forget to put it out there!

I appreciate so much when someone does point out things I say that others may misunderstand. The last thing I want to do is confuse or mislead anyone on the most important of topics!

So, you just add yourself right up there on my Mentors' List!

Love Ya!

Momma

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Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, I guess I need to state what I mean a little more clearly.

I cannot argue with Frank that it appears that the God of the Old Testament is a harsher God; however, I do not believe He was "murderous, etc., as Frank does." I realize the Crucifixion of Christ changed the way things were. Used to be God of the Old Testament, sin, punishment. Now it's God of the New Testament, Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins, no punishment. That's what I mean. They appear to be a God of two temperaments shall we say? I know they are the same God and I understand the concept. I just can't explain it well.

And thanks so very much!

Momma Angel,

You do explain it well enough I think. God is the same God that He has always been. That's the basis of our understanding of God.

In the Old Testament, God punished sin (example the rebellion of Korah) . In the New Testament God punished sin (example the sin of Ananias and Sapphira ).

In the New Testament there is forgiveness of sins, just as there is in the Old Testament (example King Manasseh after a 55 year reign of sin and rebellion against God , then humbles himself and God hears his prayer and delivers him from captivity II Chron 33:10-13 )

There's no doubt that many passages, especially in the Old Testament are difficult to understand. It's very easy to look and these and say "why did God ..........?"

It's important to know and to admit that we may not always know the answer to why, but we know the character of God is goodness and holiness. When we were children, there were many things our parents did that we did not understand. (since they are human , these things may or may not have been right) Even when they were right, we did not understand it always.

We trust the character of God and approach each of these instances with that in mind. Even when God does what is plainly and obviously right even to the most casual observer, there will be those who find fault with it.

Faith is : since what we DO understand of God always shows His character to be holy, then when we DON'T understand God, we can trust His character has not changed.

To anyone who does not have faith in God's character, take difficult passages one at a time, you will be surprised what you will learn as you really look with an open mind.

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Real Life,

Bless you! See, that's what I mean, I know in my heart what you state, to be the truth, and that is easy for me because I believe. I just have the trouble articulating to those that do not already believe.

I am learning so very much and I can't thank you enough for it. I know that wisdom comes from God, and He uses almost everyone and everything as teachers of His truth. Sometimes, it's learning how NOT to act! Oh, and I know there will always be someone that will not agree.

I have found, through my life experience, that those who resist the Word of God the hardest are often (if not always) the ones that believe that what they have done, how they have lived their lives, etc., is the exact reason they rebel so strongly and not because of unbelief of the concept, but the belief that what they have done, etc., is/was so bad that a perfect God would not and could not ever forgive them. And I find that so sad. That's why I keep hanging in there with Frank. But, I do realize there is a stopping point (pearls before swine and all that) and I am resting on the assurance God will let me know when I should stop slugging. Until then, I feel you are one of those sent to help me!

Isn't God just so awesome!?

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Yes He is. God has shown His kindness to me again and again.

He answers prayer and it's certainly not because I deserve it. No matter how much I think I am or am not following Christ, I could never earn one answer to prayer or one good thing from Him.

Every good thing is from God because of grace; and He continues to show His kindness to the world in every blessing that He has given.

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I asked a question in another forum. I asked it not because I wanted to start anything, but I really want to know the answer.

If I or anyone wants to beieve what we believe and because of that belief we are at peace, comforted, happy, unafraid of dying, filled with hope, and only want to do what is good; why would anyone WANT to take that from someone?

Can you tell me what you think the answer might be?

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Momma Angel wrote:

I asked a question in another forum. I asked it not because I wanted to start anything, but I really want to know the answer.

If I or anyone wants to beieve what we believe and because of that belief we are at peace, comforted, happy, unafraid of dying, filled with hope, and only want to do what is good; why would anyone WANT to take that from someone?

Can you tell me what you think the answer might be?

Why does a child see another child writing on a tablet and try to take it from him even if he destroys it in the tussle?

My parents used to say misery loves company.

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Funny, but in this case, I was hoping for a more complicated answer. I never looked at it quite like that. Thanx for pointing that out to me.

Kisses,

Momma

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Momma Angel wrote:

Real Life,

Perhaps you can help me out. Frank and Mesquite keep asking how do you resolve the conflict of the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.

I am having a hard time. I had to research this because I know in my heart how it is resolved, but I can't put it into words. The research I found I read and reread and looked up the scriptures that went with it. I understood it. However, Mesquite and Frank do not feel the scripture backed up the claim. So, can you, will you, please explain the conflict of the Old Testament God and the New Testament God?

I'd be eternally grateful (eternally is used literally here! Woo Hoo!)

The law was a tutor leading to Christ. It was impossible for imperfect humans to follow. The seemingly harsh judgments imposed in the OT are a reflection of God's view of sin.

Remember that the unrighteous are also promised a resurrection. That would seem to include such rebellious ones as Korah and Aachan. Look a it this way: Do we feel sympathy for some of those whose deaths are described in the bible? It's a safe bet that God feels the same way too.

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Momma Angel wrote:

If I or anyone wants to beieve what we believe and because of that belief we are at peace, comforted, happy, unafraid of dying, filled with hope, and only want to do what is good; why would anyone WANT to take that from someone?

Momma, there's no way they can take away your convictions; those are imperishably planted in your soul by His power.

Your question sounds more like perhaps you're asking why they're so froth-at-the-mouth anti-Christian. In that case, first, recall that He said "If they hate Me, they will hate you." Darkness hates light. He states, "This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (JOHN 3:19)

They'll come up with 1000 "objections," but let me put it this way: if you've reveled in the scrumptiousness of a triple-fudge cake, nobody with dead tastebuds can convince you that the cake doesn't exist or tastes like mud. If you've swooned with the fragrance of honeysuckle on a summer's eve, nobody with a failing olfactory system can convince you that the fragrance doesn't exist or smells like carrion.

In other words, the burden lies on the scoffers. They're minus a faculty (faith).

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diagknowz wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
If I or anyone wants to beieve what we believe and because of that belief we are at peace, comforted, happy, unafraid of dying, filled with hope, and only want to do what is good; why would anyone WANT to take that from someone?

Momma, there's no way they can take away your convictions; those are imperishably planted in your soul by His power.

Your question sounds more like perhaps you're asking why they're so froth-at-the-mouth anti-Christian. In that case, first, recall that He said "If they hate Me, they will hate you." Darkness hates light. He states, "This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (JOHN 3:19)

They'll come up with 1000 "objections," but let me put it this way: if you've reveled in the scrumptiousness of a triple-fudge cake, nobody with dead tastebuds can convince you that the cake doesn't exist or tastes like mud. If you've swooned with the fragrance of honeysuckle on a summer's eve, nobody with a failing olfactory system can convince you that the fragrance doesn't exist or smells like carrion.

In other words, the burden lies on the scoffers. They're minus a faculty (faith).

There is also the comforting moral license provided by disbelief, though not without consequence.

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neologist wrote:

There is also the comforting moral license provided by disbelief, though not without consequence.

OUTSTANDING point, Neo. Exclamation

(Hmmmmnn, unbeleaf [as in "fig leaf"])...

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Ah my mentors, again you teach me.

Thank you!

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Momma Angel wrote:

I know in my heart what you state, to be the truth, and that is easy for me because I believe.

Momma, that reminded me of a verse in Gerard Manley Hopkins' poem, "Spring and Fall":

Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost [soul] guessed...

For grasping spiritual concepts, the soul has a capacity that exceeds the mind's. Not that the mind is unimportant (think of the 1st part of the Great Commandment, "Love the LORD with all your MIND,") but it is like a ladder, whereas the soul is like a rocket.

Momma Angel wrote:

I just have the trouble articulating to those that do not already believe.

2 thoughts in regards to that: first, remember that their receptiveness is limited by the fact that their souls have not been opened thru regeneration (in CORINTHIANS, it says that the natural man is incapable of apprehending spiritual things). You could be the best apologist, the most articulate debater, yet they still wouldn't understand. (In that same general section of CORINTHIANS, Paul says that this is why he preaches Christ crucified, rather than wasting time with lofty arguments.) Just look at R.L.: he's a master of intellectual tennis matches, but they still don't "get it." (I myself would have tennis elbow by now if I were him! :wink: )

2ndly, even SIRACH, in chapter 34:11 says "I understand more than I can express" (for me, that was always my handicap in writing academic papers, sigh...).

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You don't know how much that helps me. I was at the point of just not knowing what to say if anything. It seemed nothing worked, each word was picked apart. I have been praying about it and it looks like I just got my answer.

Well, my prayer list has gotten longer but that's ok, because I like the time I spend talking to God.

I look forward to learning so much more from my new mentors.

God puts the teachers there when the student is ready.

Kisses,

Momma Angel

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Well, girl, you've got HEAPS more patience and tenacity than yours truly! My Choleric temperament gets fed up much more easily than your mediating temperament, LOL! It just doesn't feel good to keep bashing one's head against a wall.

Keep up the good work (and by that I mean not just to the discussions here, but praying, cuz that is HARRRRD work, ouf!).

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Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

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