Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

Re: Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

diagknowz wrote:

[The purpose of this thread is to respond to an off-topic post that Momma Angel made at the "Catholic Church Now Accepts Gays" thread. If you wish to join in, please refrain from ad hominem tactics.]

So, Momma, you were saying that you were tired of all the "violence, cussing, etc." I **KNOW** what you mean, bec. it is as tho the modern audience has turned into some sort of swine, irresistibly drawn to the most vile and putrid practices/images that can be produced.

But it's nothing new: compare it with the decadence of, for example, the Weimar Republic, and long ago, the Roman Empire. The principle of it is laid out in ROMANS 1:20ff----"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

Well, the Roman Empire is the model empire. Although why China isn't the model Empire is beyond my ken.

However, what decadences of the Roman Empire are you talking about? Most of the decadence was limited to the rich.

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Re: Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

diagknowz wrote:
[The purpose of this thread is to respond to an off-topic post that Momma Angel made at the "Catholic Church Now Accepts Gays" thread. If you wish to join in, please refrain from ad hominem tactics.]

So, Momma, you were saying that you were tired of all the "violence, cussing, etc." I **KNOW** what you mean, bec. it is as tho the modern audience has turned into some sort of swine, irresistibly drawn to the most vile and putrid practices/images that can be produced.

But it's nothing new: compare it with the decadence of, for example, the Weimar Republic, and long ago, the Roman Empire. The principle of it is laid out in ROMANS 1:20ff----"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

Well, the Roman Empire is the model empire. Although why China isn't the model Empire is beyond my ken.

However, what decadences of the Roman Empire are you talking about? Most of the decadence was limited to the rich.

Diagknowz, right off the bat Wolf provides us with an example of the progression in thought referenced in your passage of Scripture (thanks for staying on topic):

Quote:

Most of the decadence was limited to the rich.

Since the common definition of decadence has to do with a decline or decay in standards or behavior , especially of moral behavior, I think it very improbable that a decline of this nature would be mostly limited to rich people.

It makes for great political pandering, so if you're running for office it probably will make you some headlines. But in reality, rich and poor alike do not always hold to high moral standards and may become, in fact often do become decadent.

To make saints of the poor and sinners of the rich is to stir class warfare at it's most basic level.

Also , I don't think we want to model ourselves after either the Chinese or the Roman empires, do we?

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You are right, Di. It's nothing new and it's only going to get worse. Soddom and Gomorrah are a perfect example of how bad things can and will get.

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Re: Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Well, the Roman Empire is the model empire. Although why China isn't the model Empire is beyond my ken.

However, what decadences of the Roman Empire are you talking about? Most of the decadence was limited to the rich.

Wolf, I only mentioned 2 possible examples (to me, the Roman Empire is more "applicable," bec. it was a Western culture). I wasn't giving an exhaustive list. As for the rich, they invariably influence the rest of the society, bec. they have power and influence; if you will, they function as role-models for the lower classes.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Soddom and Gomorrah are a perfect example of how bad things can and will get.

What's so sad in the case of the West, Momma, is that **WE** had the benefit of The Light of the World (the WORD). S & G didn't. It puzzles me endlessly that, specifically, the US---which one writer dubbed "the nation with the soul of a church"---would end up like this.

But, as I have said in discussions with friends, I think the seeds of trouble were there from the beginning, bec. the Founding Fathers' views were an amalgam of biblical and non-biblical views. To use Francis Schaeffer's term, they had the "Judaeo-Christian consensus" as their basic ethos, but there were some Trojan Horse ideas that snuck in from the Enlightenment, etc. (Now, PUHLEEZ, nobody out there clobber me for being against the Enlightenment; I'm not totally anti-Enlightenment. But it did contain ideas that run counter to Scripture.)

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Re: Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

real life wrote:

To make saints of the poor and sinners of the rich is to stir class warfare at it's most basic level.

Righto, RL!

real life wrote:

Also , I don't think we want to model ourselves after either the Chinese or the Roman empires, do we?

Yah, when Wolf wrote that, I wasn't sure whether he meant "model" in the negative or the positive sense. Wolf, what DID you mean? :wink:

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Unfortunately, it all boils down to man has free will. We have the will to choose right from wrong. It seems to start out doing what "seems" a small wrong and then it becomes an "accepted" wrong. In the 50' and 60's for example, the morale was the majority; now, the immoral are fast becoming the majority. I hold fast to my belief that if the basic laws of God were followed; this would not be the case. But, I still believe that man "bends" God's laws to fit what man wants to do.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Unfortunately, it all boils down to man has free will. We have the will to choose right from wrong. It seems to start out doing what "seems" a small wrong and then it becomes an "accepted" wrong. In the 50' and 60's for example, the morale was the majority; now, the immoral are fast becoming the majority. I hold fast to my belief that if the basic laws of God were followed; this would not be the case. But, I still believe that man "bends" God's laws to fit what man wants to do.

Are you nuts????

In the 50's and 60's people were being lynched, black people couldn't have lunch with whites, women couldn't work in jobs for men, churches were being bombed, and husbands could beat their wives and get away with it.

I think the Brutes have done pretty well... I plan to stick with them.

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Oh for Pete's sake! I realize that not everything was PERFECT in the 50's and 60's. But just for an example:

Crime rate then and now
Kids Finishing High School then and Now
Unwanted/Unwed Pregnancies then and Now

There is never going to be perfection. The best anyone can do is strive to be the best they can be and change what they can change and changes have been made. (IMO) you have to look at the complete picture and not just a portion of it. I am totally against prejudice. What I am referring to is in the 50's (IMO) there were less wrongs to be righted then there are in today's society. Get a grip.

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This is the reason I left Christianity, and the reason I am upset with American Christians in general.

Jesus came talking about feeding the poor, healing the sick, loving your enemies and having compassion for all. When Jesus was here, he specifically avoided the political issues of the day (there were many) and talked about making disciples.

Jesus' political acts included stopping people from using capital punishment and eating with the people that society judged (that was tax collecters and sinners then, and would perhaps be homosexuals now).

There are all kinds of ways for true Christians to continue the ministry of Christ. You could stop injustice including capital punishment, you could work for the poor both here and abroad, you could stick up for immigrants, you could work to provide health care to people who need it. You could work to make peace.

But what are you doing??? Your number one issue is who I share my bed with??? Thi s is the most important problem in society?

The fact that you are more concerned with peoples adult sex lives than meeting the very real physical and spiritual needs of the people around you is perversion. You have perverted the words of Christ to support altogether unChristlike attitudes and slander.

I think I would like Jesus pretty well.... It is the so-called Christians running around now I can't stand.

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P.S. I am praying for you.

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Christ DID NOT stop people from eating with tax collectors! He sat down in the tax collectors homes and ate with them.

Matthew 9:9: As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Folle me, he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and "sinners?'

On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

And, if you will notice, I listed Unwanted/Unwed Pregnancies last on my list. Where do you get that it's my number one?

And, if you left Christianity, as you said, then (IMO) you never were a Christian. I believe once you "are" a Christian, then you do not become a non-Christian. But, like I said, that's my opinion.

I just do not understand the pessimisstic attitude of today. Why point out the negativities and forget the positives?

And, if I told you what I do for society today and what I do to change society, would you then accuse me of being self-righteous and pompous?

And as for you are praying for me, thank you! The kindness gift one can give (IMO) is the gift of prayer.

Christ did not come to run for government and be political. He came to bring a better way of life for everyone. He gave us basics to live by and living by those basics (read the Beatitudes) we all benefit.

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Momma, you misunderstand.

I was suggesting that the hatred of homosexuals that central to the lives American Christians is un-Christlike. I am suggesting that you get over it and focus on other things. The scripture you posted makes my point. Why can't todays so-called Christians be like this.

To follow up on your earlier post. Christians are constantly indulging in mythology (and I am not talking about the Bible). This idiocy that society is getting more "evil" is clearly just invented facts.

Let's take the areas you gave.

1) Crime rates: In the fifties the reported homicide rates were roughly 4.5 per 100000 people. Now the homicide rate is roughly 5.5. There are strong indications that the actual rate is now lower since we report homicide differently.

In addition there are much fewer lynchings, church bombings and other acts of terrorism. And Christian groups like the KKK are much less active.

I see no reason to go back.

2) High School graduation: In 1950 the graduation rate was around 55%. Now it is around 70%. These numbers don't reflect the fact that in 1950 women and blacks weren't expected to graduate.

I wouldn't want to go back.

3) I won't argue pregnancy rates. But with women dying from secret abortions, full orphanages and early marriages...

I wouldn't want to go back.

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I agree with you on the way some Christians treat homosexuals. That is not what Jesus intended. He said hate the sin and love the sinner.

And ok, statistically, perhaps you have a point. But, have you not left out the mass murderers, serial killers, terrorists attacking OUR country, etc,., that did not occur in years gone by? I would venture to say that the statistics here are pretty obvious, wouldn't you?

True, we don't have many lynchings, and I am from Louisiana BTW, but what we do have is children carrying guns to schools, children bombing and shooting up schools, drug addicted children in numbers too numerous to mention, etc.

(IMO) one cannot honestly and fairly say that today's society is more morally just than that of years ago. If, as you say because of statistics, society is "getting better?", then what would be the reason for Christ returning? He's going to come because we are doing better?

The reality is 50 and 60 years ago you could go to bed at night and not lock your door because you trusted your neighbor. Reality is you could drive your car down the street and stop at a stop sign and no one would carjack you. Reality is the world is becoming more evil. If "we" don't like the laws that disagreed with what we wanted to do, then we changed them. And yes, unfortunately one of those laws does concern homosexuality and marriage. It is just an example.

Society has become far too tolerant. I am not saying that we need to be hateful to the ones we feel are doing wrong. That is not what Christ wants. He wants us to show each other, through His teachings, where we are lacking and to encourage each other to change for the better.

Lumping all Christians, all men, all women, all anything is not fair. Even if there is one out there that is different from what you feel they are, "they" are not all alike.

And what good does turning from Christianity do because you don't like what some Christians do? Quitting does nothing but help them sustain the attitudes you don't like. We (IMO) must hang in there and try to show by our attitudes and behaviors what it is supposed to be. If you do not discipline a child for doing wrong and yet show love to that child, the behavior stays the same. One must encourage and not condemn.

I completely understand how you feel about the hatred shown to (as your example stated) the homosexuals. The "Christians" that show hatred to them do nothing but turn them further from the Lord. God clearly points out in the Bible that is not what we are supposed to do.

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ebrown_p wrote:

In the 50's and 60's people were being lynched, black people couldn't have lunch with whites, women couldn't work in jobs for men, churches were being bombed, and husbands could beat their wives and get away with it.

Ipso facto any putative improvement in those areas equals the litmus test of progress.

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ebrown_p wrote:

This is the reason I left Christianity, and the reason I am upset with American Christians in general.

Jesus came talking about feeding the poor, healing the sick, loving your enemies and having compassion for all. When Jesus was here, he specifically avoided the political issues of the day (there were many) and talked about making disciples.

Jesus' political acts included stopping people from using capital punishment and eating with the people that society judged (that was tax collecters and sinners then, and would perhaps be homosexuals now).

There are all kinds of ways for true Christians to continue the ministry of Christ. You could stop injustice including capital punishment, you could work for the poor both here and abroad, you could stick up for immigrants, you could work to provide health care to people who need it. You could work to make peace.

But what are you doing??? Your number one issue is who I share my bed with??? Thi s is the most important problem in society?

The fact that you are more concerned with peoples adult sex lives than meeting the very real physical and spiritual needs of the people around you is perversion. You have perverted the words of Christ to support altogether unChristlike attitudes and slander.

I think I would like Jesus pretty well.... It is the so-called Christians running around now I can't stand.

I think you are a little mixed up here.

You claim Jesus addressed no political issues. But you trashing Christians for not using political means to end capital punishment and for not raising taxes to feed people and provide health care.

If feeding the poor and healing the sick are part of Christ's mission that his church should be doing ( in your opinion ), then why do you want the government to do these things? Are you not in favor of separation of church and state?

Should non Christians be forced to pay for feeding the poor and healing the sick in fulfillment of Christ's call , even if this constitutes forcing them to follow a religion that is not theirs?

Should the government be the church and force all of us to follow Christ's commands? It seems you are arguing for this.

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I am not mixed up. I am just angry with the "Christians" of today.

I am no longer a Christian and my beliefs (which are no longer Christian) are consistant with my actions. (Factually, my beliefs are more in line with the words of Jesus than the beliefs of most evangelicals-- e.g. with peacemaking, not judging and turning the other cheek).

What are the two big issues that Christians bring to politics? Abortion and Homosexuality.

My beef with Homosexuality was (as you point out) why would any real Christian care who I sleep with? Why should you pressure the government to make me follow a religion that is not mine (you worded this well)?

I am sympathetic to the Christian view against abortion (although I think the shrillness of the argument they make is often not only counterproductive, but decidedly un-Christlike).

But my beef is what the Christians-- the so-called "lights" of the world are doing-- besides worrying about who non-christians choose to sleep with. Compare all of these with Jesus' words from the Sermon on the mount.

1) Championing the right to own guns and the right to use them to defend property-- When Jesus said "turn the other cheek" and "don't resist the evil man".
2) Supporting war and cheering hatred of Muslims-- When Jesus talked of compassion, peacemaking, forgiveness and loving ones enemies.
3) Attacking the rights of immigrants -- and using "the law" to support policies that will hurt the poor when Jesus purposely broke the law to help the needy.

If you want to separate Christians from non-Christians in a Democracy, fine. You can let us non-christians create government policies that out of compassion help the poor and provide healthcare for the needy.

But if many non-christians want to help the poor, why do Christians try to stop them? At the very least Christians should step out of the way of people trying to help the poor.

What is shocking is what Christians don't do.

There is a lot of poverty-- Christians are not at the forefront of dealing with this problem either politically or not.

There is war-- Christians are not at the forefront of dealing with this problem either politically or not.

There is hatred and discord especially with Muslims in our society right now-- Christians are at the forefront of making this problem worse.

As you can see I am angry. Again I have read the Bible and I think Jesus was right on in many things. I would like Jesus if I met him.

The Modern people who call themselves Christians are nothing like the Jesus in the Bible.

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ebrown,

You are angry with the "Christians" of today? Any certain ones in particular? I happen to be a Christian. Do you know what the word Christian means? It means "Christ like". Christians are supposed to be as much like Christ as they can be.

So, when you say your beliefs are no longer Christian, what do you mean?

And believe me abortion and homosexuality are not the only issues that Christians bring to politics. They just happen to be two of the biggest.

And as far as any real Christian caring who you sleep with goes, hey, that's between you and God. I happen to believe homosexuality is a sin. But, just because I believe it is a sin, it does not mean that homosexuals should be treated with any less dignity or respect anyone deserves.

And you bet, bombing abortion clinics is definitely not Christ like and is more than unproductive.

When God said resist the evil man, He did not mean that if someone tries to break into your home and kill you, that you should just turn the other cheek and let him do it. He is speaking of resisting the evil you can. He instilled in man and all the animals a sense of survival. Even God protects his property.

And as far as supporting the war goes. Hey, I hate the war. I do not like war. But, the fact is, we have troops fighting a war right now. Those troops deserve our support simply for the fact they are there in service of our country. If we don't like the politicians then we should vote them out. That is how we have our say in the war.

And I am not exactly sure what you mean about attacking the rights of immigrants and using "the law' to support policies that will hurt the poor. But be assured of this Jesus DID NOT break any laws. Christ was perfect and without sin. He said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's, which means you have to obey the laws of the government. Hey, we elect the government. If we don't like it, we have the right to vote to change it.

And what Christians try to stop non-christians from helping the poor. Could you elaborate on that for me?

And you are doing an awful lot of blaming the Christians here and I take some offense at that.

I am not perfect, but I do my best to do as Jesus would have me do. Among Christians you have all different kinds of religious sects. Are you referring to a particular sect?

No one likes to be judged as being just like everyone else, whether it be because of race, religion, or creed. And, if more Christians who find other Christians are not doing as Jesus has laid out for them, then what good is it for you to become a non-Christian? Do you quit everything because you don't like the way someone else does it?

God tells us to admonish one another. If you see a Christian spewing hate to anyone, you are supposed to tell them that is not right. You don't give up what you believe to be right. That's quitting. I prefer to stand up for the Christians that ARE doing what God has set forth.

Believe me, God will deal harshly with the Christians that distort, twist, and pervert His laws.

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ebrown_p wrote:

I am not mixed up. I am just angry with the "Christians" of today.

I am no longer a Christian and my beliefs (which are no longer Christian) are consistant with my actions. (Factually, my beliefs are more in line with the words of Jesus than the beliefs of most evangelicals-- e.g. with peacemaking, not judging and turning the other cheek).

What are the two big issues that Christians bring to politics? Abortion and Homosexuality.

My beef with Homosexuality was (as you point out) why would any real Christian care who I sleep with? Why should you pressure the government to make me follow a religion that is not mine (you worded this well)?

I am sympathetic to the Christian view against abortion (although I think the shrillness of the argument they make is often not only counterproductive, but decidedly un-Christlike).

But my beef is what the Christians-- the so-called "lights" of the world are doing-- besides worrying about who non-christians choose to sleep with. Compare all of these with Jesus' words from the Sermon on the mount.

1) Championing the right to own guns and the right to use them to defend property-- When Jesus said "turn the other cheek" and "don't resist the evil man".
2) Supporting war and cheering hatred of Muslims-- When Jesus talked of compassion, peacemaking, forgiveness and loving ones enemies.
3) Attacking the rights of immigrants -- and using "the law" to support policies that will hurt the poor when Jesus purposely broke the law to help the needy.

If you want to separate Christians from non-Christians in a Democracy, fine. You can let us non-christians create government policies that out of compassion help the poor and provide healthcare for the needy.

But if many non-christians want to help the poor, why do Christians try to stop them? At the very least Christians should step out of the way of people trying to help the poor.

What is shocking is what Christians don't do.

There is a lot of poverty-- Christians are not at the forefront of dealing with this problem either politically or not.

There is war-- Christians are not at the forefront of dealing with this problem either politically or not.

There is hatred and discord especially with Muslims in our society right now-- Christians are at the forefront of making this problem worse.

As you can see I am angry. Again I have read the Bible and I think Jesus was right on in many things. I would like Jesus if I met him.

The Modern people who call themselves Christians are nothing like the Jesus in the Bible.

Encouraging folks to help the poor, the sick , the needy , etc out of their personal funds and time is one thing. A very good thing.

Encouraging folks to allow the arm of Government to help the poor , the sick , the needy, etc by confiscating the needed money by taxing and using the force of law to equalize incomes is quite another. This isn't compassion, it's simply creating dependency and buying votes with your money.

Do we want the Government to be the Church?

The Founders of America put together a very limited federal government for very good reason. It was not a Federal social worker. It had few specific, enumerated powers. That was all.

All else was to be left to the people and to the states. see 10th Amendment.

Forcing the Federal government to take up the functions of a church is one of the worst ideas I can think of.

The Federal government DOES have a responsibility to protect the country from enemies. This is a function you apparently do NOT want it to do?

The Federal government DOES have a responsibility to enforce the Bill of Rights, including the 2nd Amendment. This is a function you apparently do NOT want it to do?

The Federal government DOES have a responsibility to regulate immigration; and allow legal immigrants while disallowing illegal immigrants. This is a function you apparently do NOT want it to do?

I still think you are mixed up.

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Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

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