Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

Yeah! What Real Life said.

0 Replies

"Christian means 'follower of Christ'". That is my point.

The people who call themselve Christians today are nothing like Christ. They don't follow his words or his example.

What was Jesus like?

- He gravitated toward the poor and spoke harshly toward the rich.
- He purposely broke laws to help people in need.
- He had compassion on people who broke laws, including stopping an execution when the law called for the death penalty.
- He resisted calls from his followers to forcefully resist an oppressive government.
- He did not fight back when attacked and forgave (and even healed) his attackers.

Tell me how this relates to the Christianity of today?

RealLife, your justification of the beliefs of Christiantiy make me both frustrated and sad.

The issue of the "Federal Government" is kind of irrelevant. Federalism, Democracy are not mentioned in the Bible. In the time of Jesus and the early church, they were under a rather repressive empire. The Bible talks about submitting to a king, but that is neither here nor there.

In modern times, you could make an argument the Christians should focus on giving in their own (or through churches) and not worry about what the secular democracy does. OK, Christians are supposed to give their lives (figuratively and perhaps at times literally) to help others.

But your argument that Christians should oppose the attempts of "non-christians" to help the poor through secular government is simply ridiculous. Christ was compassionate on the poor. It seems a Christian would support anything to help the poor, whether public policy or private effort. It is certain they wouldn't oppose these efforts.

You are also wrong about the benefits of a modern public policy that helps the poor. Churches have never really made an impact.

The biggest things that have made our society better are public education (without question the best way to fight poverty), public health, and public programs like Social Security and WIC. They have had a huge effect on poverty in this country.

Christians aren't doing anything significant except trying to stop people from getting married, lowering taxes for the well-off, and opposing evolution in classrooms.

As Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit".

0 Replies

ebrown_p wrote:

Christians aren't doing anything significant except trying to stop people from getting married, lowering taxes for the well-off, and opposing evolution in classrooms.

I don't know of any Christian who is trying to stop people from getting married, based on the historical meaning of what marriage is. In fact, I think a great many Christians would have little problem with gays wishing to form a contract that would give them the same secular rights as those given to married couples, if gays would/could drop their insistence on calling it a marriage.

As far as lowering taxes for the well-off, I think you have Christians confused with republicans, who would like to see taxes as low as possible for everyone, not just the well-off. Something tells me there are more non-Christians who oppose high taxes as there are Christians who oppose high taxes, but I realize you need to paint the Christians as the main group against this in order to make your point.

Nor do I know of any Christian movement to stop evolution from being taught in classrooms. It should be taught as a theory, not as fact since it is unproven and unprovable until such time that man devises a means of going back in time to see for himself. We do ask that mention be made that another explanation given for man's appearance on earth is that of creation. But that is vastly different than your assertion that Christians oppose evolution in the classroom.

0 Replies

You didn't answer the question I raised.

What are Christians doing today that even remotely resembles the life or words of Christ?

I don't want to argue evolution or marriage. I am just pointing out that were Jesus alive today, he probably would have better things to do--like helping the poor or healing the sick.

Christians of today are nothing like Christ. That is the problem with Christianity.

0 Replies

CoastalRat wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:

Christians aren't doing anything significant except trying to stop people from getting married, lowering taxes for the well-off, and opposing evolution in classrooms.

I don't know of any Christian who is trying to stop people from getting married, based on the historical meaning of what marriage is. In fact, I think a great many Christians would have little problem with gays wishing to form a contract that would give them the same secular rights as those given to married couples, if gays would/could drop their insistence on calling it a marriage.

I know this is going off topic, but if it's legally the same thing, why should it be called something different?

It's like having separate bathrooms for black and white people, when really, they're just the same thing.

Quote:

As far as lowering taxes for the well-off, I think you have Christians confused with republicans, who would like to see taxes as low as possible for everyone, not just the well-off. Something tells me there are more non-Christians who oppose high taxes as there are Christians who oppose high taxes, but I realize you need to paint the Christians as the main group against this in order to make your point.

Yes, but the religious right traditionally support a party that starts with lowering taxes for those who can afford to pay taxes, when the Republican Party should start with lowering taxes for those who can't afford it.

If they were true Christians, they would either, not support the Republican Party and form a different Party that has all the real Christian attributes from both Parties, or they would insist on the Republican Party not giving the rich tax breaks that they don't need.

So far, I haven't seen them do either.

And yes, I'm sure your right about the broad paintbrushing.

Quote:

Nor do I know of any Christian movement to stop evolution from being taught in classrooms.

All the Creationists that are attempting to stop evolution from being taught in classrooms are Christians. They are hence, a Christian movement, trying to stop evolution from being taught in schools. Furthermore, they want Biblical Creationism to be taught in its place.

Seems like a Christian movement to me, though granted, it is not the entirety of Christianity and we can be thankful of that.

Quote:

It should be taught as a theory, not as fact since it is unproven and unprovable until such time that man devises a means of going back in time to see for himself.

Not this hogwash again.

A theory in science is one that has been proven to be more true than its opposite statement. It has more than one piece of evidence supporting it.

Evolution fits into that definition.

Quote:

We do ask that mention be made that another explanation given for man's appearance on earth is that of creation. But that is vastly different than your assertion that Christians oppose evolution in the classroom.

Indeed. In the UK, we don't have this problem. By law we are taught Christianity in schools, and hence Creation. Conversely, though, evolution seems to be optional. Regardless, evolution is more accepted in the UK.

However, Creationism is not taught in science classes, because it is not a theory nor is it provable scientific fact. It is taught in religious education classes, where it belongs.

And I don't think he meant an assertion that Christians in general oppose evolution, merely that a Christian movement, consisting of a number of Christians, oppose the teaching of evolution.

This cannot be denied. It's in the news.

0 Replies

ebrown_p wrote:

You didn't answer the question I raised.

What are Christians doing today that even remotely resembles the life or words of Christ?

I don't want to argue evolution or marriage. I am just pointing out that were Jesus alive today, he probably would have better things to do--like helping the poor or healing the sick.

Christians of today are nothing like Christ. That is the problem with Christianity.

That's not true anymore, because there is now a Christian Left that is opposing the Christian right of which you speak. I think they're a political movement, trying to reclaim Christianity in its truest form.

Even though they seem rather fundamental to me, I think they're much better than the religious right on the sole reason that they are more Christian than their counterparts.

0 Replies

True, I did not answer your question. Actually, I meant to do so, but ended the post prematurely.

Anyway, it would take me a while to start listing Christian run or based charities. Go to just about any major city and you will find feed the hungry programs, the majority run by Christian organizations and staffed in most cases by Christians donating their time (at least it is done that way where I am).

Individual churches (again, at least in my area) are involved in many projects designed to help those in society who for whatever reason have been dealt a bum rap. These are things that don't get airplay, don't get reported, and lead those who take a dim view on Christianity for whatever reason to see Christians as not following Christ's lead.

If I had the time, I would gladly volunteer to give you a detail listing of Christian ministries just in my area which give people the opportunity to serve as Christ served. But I doubt this would change your opinion.

Admittedly, most of the press goes to the nut cases in any organization, whether it be the NRA, Muslims, Christians, left-wing radicals, right-wing radicals and so on. But discounting what religious organizations do to combat society's ills is I think an error.

0 Replies

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:

Christians aren't doing anything significant except trying to stop people from getting married, lowering taxes for the well-off, and opposing evolution in classrooms.

I don't know of any Christian who is trying to stop people from getting married, based on the historical meaning of what marriage is. In fact, I think a great many Christians would have little problem with gays wishing to form a contract that would give them the same secular rights as those given to married couples, if gays would/could drop their insistence on calling it a marriage.

I know this is going off topic, but if it's legally the same thing, why should it be called something different?

It's like having separate bathrooms for black and white people, when really, they're just the same thing.

Quote:
As far as lowering taxes for the well-off, I think you have Christians confused with republicans, who would like to see taxes as low as possible for everyone, not just the well-off. Something tells me there are more non-Christians who oppose high taxes as there are Christians who oppose high taxes, but I realize you need to paint the Christians as the main group against this in order to make your point.

Yes, but the religious right traditionally support a party that starts with lowering taxes for those who can afford to pay taxes, when the Republican Party should start with lowering taxes for those who can't afford it.

If they were true Christians, they would either, not support the Republican Party and form a different Party that has all the real Christian attributes from both Parties, or they would insist on the Republican Party not giving the rich tax breaks that they don't need.

So far, I haven't seen them do either.

And yes, I'm sure your right about the broad paintbrushing.

Quote:
Nor do I know of any Christian movement to stop evolution from being taught in classrooms.

All the Creationists that are attempting to stop evolution from being taught in classrooms are Christians. They are hence, a Christian movement, trying to stop evolution from being taught in schools. Furthermore, they want Biblical Creationism to be taught in its place.

Seems like a Christian movement to me, though granted, it is not the entirety of Christianity and we can be thankful of that.

Quote:
It should be taught as a theory, not as fact since it is unproven and unprovable until such time that man devises a means of going back in time to see for himself.

Not this hogwash again.

A theory in science is one that has been proven to be more true than its opposite statement. It has more than one piece of evidence supporting it.

Evolution fits into that definition.

Quote:
We do ask that mention be made that another explanation given for man's appearance on earth is that of creation. But that is vastly different than your assertion that Christians oppose evolution in the classroom.

Indeed. In the UK, we don't have this problem. By law we are taught Christianity in schools, and hence Creation. Conversely, though, evolution seems to be optional. Regardless, evolution is more accepted in the UK.

However, Creationism is not taught in science classes, because it is not a theory nor is it provable scientific fact. It is taught in religious education classes, where it belongs.

And I don't think he meant an assertion that Christians in general oppose evolution, merely that a Christian movement, consisting of a number of Christians, oppose the teaching of evolution.

This cannot be denied. It's in the news.

While I would love to discuss your points, it would definately take us off-topic. I will only say the the point I make about the teaching of evolution is this. Nobody that I know of is trying to STOP evolution from being taught. It is a valid, scientific theory which science believes is provable. (I won't argue the provable point because neither of us would be convinced away from our belief on this issue) Christians only ask that it not be taught as absolute and that creationist belief also be presented as an alternative THEORY. I am sure there are some who would like to see evolution not taught at all, but I don't believe, from my experience, that this is any type of majority.

Anyway, have a good day.

0 Replies

Evolution annoys me a little bit. It is not the main reason I am angry at Christians.

What makes me angry is:

- Christians' support of public policies that hurt the poor,
- Their lack of compassion for immigrant workers (most of whom are very poor),
- Their judgemental insistance that secular laws prohibit things that go against their religion.
- Their willingness to ignore the plight of people based on political concerns.

Evolution is one of the least important problems I have with Modern Christianity.

If Christians acted anything like Christ, I wouldn't be so angry.

0 Replies

CoastalRat wrote:

Christians only ask that it [Creationsim] not be taught as absolute and that creationist belief also be presented as an alternative THEORY.

I really want to say something in relation to this sentence. I really do, but I'm afraid it would bring us off topic.

Confused

It's going against my every nerve not to make a rebuttal against this misuse of the word theory.

So...

Quote:

I am sure there are some who would like to see evolution not taught at all, but I don't believe, from my experience, that this is any type of majority.

Nor do I, it's just that's what I thought you meant from the way you worded yourself, that's all.

I'm sorry, but I have to make a rebuttal against your use of the word theory for Creationism.

Creationism cannot be taught in science as an alternative theory, because a theory has to have empirical evidence backing it up, which Creationism does not. In fact, Creationism cannot be taught in science, because there is no empirical evidence for it, and the only way for Creationism to be taught in schools is for the Government to make it legal for religious education to be present in schools.

I'm sorry. Crying or Very sad

0 Replies

ebrown,

CHRIST DID NOT, AND I REPEAT DID NOT BREAK ANY LAWS! He was without sin.

And secondly, I take great offense at being lumped in with "the Christians of today of which you speak."

As in any race, religion, cult, group, etc., there are those that break away from the intended teachings and behaviors. I find it so strange that Christians are seemingly the only "group" which is continually pointed out.

I have been asked that question before about what am I doing to be like Christ. Well, I have also answered it many times and have gotten the same response, they tell me I am being self-righteous and "saying how good I think I am."

The true Christian does not boast of good works. "By grace are ye saved and not by works."

I hear no one speak of the things of the other religions. Did you know the suicide bombers in Iraq are told: 1) they will become martyrs and go to heaven; 2) by becoming a suicide bomber and taking innocent lives with them, they ensure their families will go to heven; and 3) they will be married to 72 women in heaven?

Now, you tell me, what's up with that? The only reason (IMO) the Christian faith is continually criticized is because Christian law is against sin and God decides what sin is, not man.

Man is twisting, distorting, and perverting the law.

Christians are continually told we "try to force our religion down one's throat." Some do, some don't. But, I find your lumping all of us together extremely wrong. If you know of a certain person or hundreds of people or whatever, calling themselves Christians and you don't feel they are, then please, point them out, and leave the Christians of today, who are doing what they can to be Christ-like out of it.

0 Replies

ebrown_p wrote:

Evolution annoys me a little bit. It is not the main reason I am angry at Christians.

What makes me angry is:

- Christians' support of public policies that hurt the poor,
- Their lack of compassion for immigrant workers (most of whom are very poor),
- Their judgemental insistance that secular laws prohibit things that go against their religion.
- Their willingness to ignore the plight of people based on political concerns.

Evolution is one of the least important problems I have with Modern Christianity.

If Christians acted anything like Christ, I wouldn't be so angry.

I'm sure you have valid reasons for believing as you do. But I am curious as to what examples you can give that support your above statements about Christians in general. You need not give an example for your statement about wanting secular laws passed because I can readily guess one or two examples off the top of my head. And you may indeed have a point there. Although I could use that exact statement about any group wishing to have laws passed to shape what they believe society should look like.

Hope to hear back cause I really am curious as to your other three statements.

0 Replies

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
Christians only ask that it [Creationsim] not be taught as absolute and that creationist belief also be presented as an alternative THEORY.

I really want to say something in relation to this sentence. I really do, but I'm afraid it would bring us off topic.

It's going against my every nerve not to make a rebuttal against this misuse of the word theory.

So...

Quote:
I am sure there are some who would like to see evolution not taught at all, but I don't believe, from my experience, that this is any type of majority.

Nor do I, it's just that's what I thought you meant from the way you worded yourself, that's all.

I'm sorry, but I have to make a rebuttal against your use of the word theory for Creationism.

Creationism cannot be taught in science as an alternative theory, because a theory has to have empirical evidence backing it up, which Creationism does not. In fact, Creationism cannot be taught in science, because there is no empirical evidence for it, and the only way for Creationism to be taught in schools is for the Government to make it legal for religious education to be present in schools.

I'm sorry.

Don't be sorry. I really do understand your disagreement with the word theory in regard to Creationism. I will happily drop that word from my previous statement.

It gets confusing to many what a theory is. To me, quite simply, a theory is something that cannot be proven with absolute certainty. As such, both evolution and creationism could be looked at as theories. I will concede the point that a theory, as defined by a scientist, may not have the exact same connotation as I prescribe to it, but in reality it is still just a theory. Evolution may be the best theory scientifically speaking, for the evidence, but it is still a best guess case based on scientific reasoning and deduction.

Anyway, forgive my use of the word because I really think you know the point I was trying to make. :wink:

0 Replies

Oh Momma,

You don't even know your own religion...

Quote:

you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

From Matthew 12

0 Replies

CoastalRat wrote:

Don't be sorry. I really do understand your disagreement with the word theory in regard to Creationism. I will happily drop that word from my previous statement.

Oh no, I should be sorry, because I just know the topic will go off topic because of my post...

See here! It's happening right now!

Quote:

It gets confusing to many what a theory is. To me, quite simply, a theory is something that cannot be proven with absolute certainty. As such, both evolution and creationism could be looked at as theories. I will concede the point that a theory, as defined by a scientist, may not have the exact same connotation as I prescribe to it, but in reality it is still just a theory. Evolution may be the best theory scientifically speaking, for the evidence, but it is still a best guess case based on scientific reasoning and deduction.

Yes, indeed. It is the best scientifically speaking and is generally changing with time as it accumulates more evidence.

Unfortunately, since most of that evidence is published in scientific journals, in all sorts of different scientific journals, it can get quite bewildering to find all this scientific evidence, especially if you don't have subscriptions to them.

In this way, Jesus was right.

Money is a problem and it's preventing people from finding the evidence they need to in order to truly make up their minds, because what they teach you in school is just the bare basics and not even close to what is available.

Quote:

Anyway, forgive my use of the word because I really think you know the point I was trying to make. :wink:

Yes.

I find it funny though, how over here, the opposite seems to be true in the teaching of evolution and creationism, and how even being taught Creationism still hasn't changed people's view on Evolution.

You can't say its because the population is unChristian. Many call themselves Christians and many are Christian when you get down to the nitty gritty, follow in Christ's footsteps that ebrown_p is talking about.

Hence, proof of your point that Christian =/= Creationist.

0 Replies

ebrown,

I guess you missed that part about it "being lawful to do good on the Sabbath."?

0 Replies

That's my point Momma,

Take immigrants who come from very poor, and sometimes very desparate circumstances. They cross the border and work hard, during which time they start to build a life, make connections and work for a future for their families.

In cases like these, Jesus focused on the person. He healed when healing was needed. He spared the life of the woman in sin when the law said she should be killed.

Modern "Christians" are the core of anti-immigrant movement. "Christians" today don't focus on the needs or circumstances of the people, their concern is "they are breaking the law". Christians are very visibly pushing "enforcement" and even new laws that will be even more harsh.

These Christians don't care about the fact that their strict legalism will uproot and break up families and cause hardship to people within their community. Where is the "compassion"? Where is "love they neighbor"?

Even worse is the fact that the primary justification for these laws is to protect the wealth of the well-off from immigrants in poverty.

Protecting the rich from the poor is a theme in Modern Churches that is remarkably absent from the ministry of Christ.

0 Replies

ebrown,

Let me put it to you this way. Think of "true Christianity (being Christlike" like a family.

Christ is the father, setting the rules for His children that will give them the knowledge they need to live a happy, hopeful, productive life. He also sets down the punishment for breaking the rules. Children, being children, will test the father. They make the choice to break the rules, knowing what the consequences are.

Now, if the father does not admonish the child that is breaking the rules, he is allowing that child to supercede his authority, and their behavior and his "ignoring" it, causes the other children to believe they can also break the rules without consequences and therefore; setting a standard against the law.

It is not those that deem to enforce the law that cause the destruction, it is those that deem to break the law. If the laws were not broken, there would be no need to intervene.

I will be the first to tell you that yes, some Christians of today use religion to gain power and wealth. But, I will also be the first to tell you these are the Christians God will deal with in the most harshest of ways, because they are the children breaking the father's laws and causing the other children to rebel against the father.

That's why I hate to hear "I used to be a Christian but because of the way today's Christians are, I quit." If everyone in this world quit something because they do not like the way "they" are behaving, there would be no belief whatsoever. So, I try to make sure I stick as closely to Christ's teachings as I can. Christians are supposed to show by example the wonder of Christ.

It is just like everything else. There is good and there is bad in any group. We have a choice to either side with the good and try to help others or we side with the bad and believe nothing.

For me, I choose Jesus. I choose to continue to go down that straight and narrow path and try to be an example to others. I feel there is just too much of "well, it's right for me" in this world. That statement justifies any type of behavior. Heck, serial killers think "well, it's right for me!" That does not make it right. There is right and there is wrong. Let me ask you this, "how often did your parents let you make the rules different because you didn't like them?

0 Replies

ebrown_p wrote:

"Christian means 'follower of Christ'". That is my point.

The people who call themselve Christians today are nothing like Christ. They don't follow his words or his example.

What was Jesus like?

- He gravitated toward the poor and spoke harshly toward the rich.

For lack of time, I will start with only one of your points, but it is basic to all the rest.

This is a false impression of Christ's attitude and actions. Christ did not practice the class warfare that seems to be the specialty of the secular Left today.

In fact, of the few disciples that we know something of their background , we know:

Matthew was a tax collector and a wealthy man

Zacchaeus (not one of the 12, but a disciple) also was a tax collector and wealthy

Peter , James and John were co-owners of a fishing business (they had hired servants in the boats with them)

Joseph of Arimathea ( a follower of Christ secretly for fear of the Jews) was a wealthy and politically connected man

There was a group of wealthy women who travelled with Jesus and supported Him out of their wealth.

Of course, Jesus also had disciples who were poor, and those who were "middle class".

The point is: Jesus' appeal and His message were NOT limited to the poor, nor did it contain an anti-rich slant.

He taught that there are temptations and pitfalls in the lives of the rich AND the poor.

It seems that most misperceptions of Jesus follow this same pattern. They ignore the plain statements of scripture and fashion a new Jesus to fit their agenda.

------------------------

So, you have noticed that Christians aren't very Christlike on many occasions, eh?

Surprise! They are sinners! Isn't this exactly what Christ said?

If you ever find a perfect Christian church with perfect Christians in it, do them a favor and DO NOT GO THERE. You will mess it up. (so would I.)

0 Replies

Right on Real Life!

It is unfortunate that those who speak of the "Christians of today" and their behavior fail to recognize the Christians of today that do as Christ preaches. Wonder why that is?

Focusing on the negative and not the positive.

I enjoy your posts so much. Someday I hope I can be as articulate as you are in expressing your views.

0 Replies

Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know