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Can morality be objective in a world without God?

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2005 12:02 am
....and note that each exhange here is within a social continuity such that any quotation from a previous exhange drifts like disembodied smoke from the essence of its previous "social reality"...
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John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2005 03:36 am
Thalion wrote:
Not sure what your problem is. I was just saying that he disagreed with what he had said, which sounds similar to what you're saying, even though it was "logical."


There is no problem. I am Wittgenstein. That is why I sound like him.
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John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2005 03:39 am
JLNobody wrote:
John Jones, when you speak to me you speak to Brahmin. But, then, you are also Brahmin speaking to Brahmin.
Can philosophy not be subjective?


Yes, Brahmin... But that aside, what I said about W. and me was right. Abilities, temperament, interests, character, weaknessess..all there.
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John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2005 04:08 am
Quote:
Hegel said that language is inherently universal, meaning that if I say "It is raining", I am attempting to convey the meaning of this particular sitation but I suceed only in conveying a universal; what I mean is lost. This is essentially a shift away from the strictly logical analysis of the structure of the sentence towards the a theory about the usage of language.


That piece about 'whereof we cannot speak thereof we must be silent' I would like to say 'drifts' to the idea of the 'limit of language'. A nice example might put a rudder on it: Language cannot convey experience, the colour yellow, for example. It can invoke it but we have to be silent when it comes down to describing the colour. But Language can give us precision through its statements, such as through written instructions. I would sumarise it in a phrase I thought many years ago (that's my disclaimer to any failings in it) - there is a written law, and an unwritten law.

I don't think the idea that statements are general cases helps us. We always apply statements as a particular case (unless we make propositions of logic out of them). If the statement is said to be always a general case then I have to ask what the statement is. For I cannot imply that it might be raining everywhere, or raining anywhere where I can apply the statement 'it is raining'. If you then say that the words are the general case, then I have lost the meaning altogether and have merely an assemblage of letters arranged in groups.

It is because of that, that it has not made sense to me what a 'philosophy of language' could possibly be about. 'Language' can't be a general term that sums up or represents the essence of all statements; and language can't be a general term that references all statements, or makes a set of them unless we list each and every statement.
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val
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2005 04:45 am
John Jones


Quote:
If I say 'it is raining' both I, and the person I say it to, understand that 'it is raining'. The only way to introduce doubt or the demands of evidence is to change the statement. For example, the statement will become 'it might be raining', or the statement might become: 'the person who says "it is raining" may be lying'.


Yes, but there are two problems to consider.
When I say to you "it's raining" I use a codified system of communication and, since you are familiar to that particular system, you understand what I mean.
The same when I say "there is a fire in the building".
And the same when I say "the queen of France is a woman".
But language is not only an exchange of statements within a codified system.
When I say to you "it's raining", or "there is a fire" I am describing a factual situation. The statements are valid within the language system previously chosen, but they are not necessarily true.
Because those statements refer to something that is external to the logic of language. And that is the reason why when I say "it is raining" or "there is a fire" I am causing in you, not only an understanding but also a physical reaction.
There is no difference with the signs that some animals give, when they feel a predator. They understand the signs, but there is something else: a reaction, that has nothing to do with language.
I think you agree that logical system can never reach anything that is not already included and codified within that system.
What I mean by this is: the validity of a proposition has nothing to do with it's truth.
See the third example: "the queen of France is a woman". This is a valid proposition. The predicate/attribute is already in the subject. This could be an analytical proposition. But it isn't. When I say "the queen of France is a woman", I am saying more than that. I am saying" There is a queen in France, and that queen is a woman". And that proposition is valid but false.
But if I say "assuming that there is a queen in France, that supposed queen must be a woman", I am enouncing an analytical proposition.
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John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2005 08:53 am
val wrote:
John Jones


Quote:
If I say 'it is raining' both I, and the person I say it to, understand that 'it is raining'. The only way to introduce doubt or the demands of evidence is to change the statement. For example, the statement will become 'it might be raining', or the statement might become: 'the person who says "it is raining" may be lying'.


Yes, but there are two problems to consider.
When I say to you "it's raining" I use a codified system of communication and, since you are familiar to that particular system, you understand what I mean.
The same when I say "there is a fire in the building".
And the same when I say "the queen of France is a woman".
But language is not only an exchange of statements within a codified system.
When I say to you "it's raining", or "there is a fire" I am describing a factual situation. The statements are valid within the language system previously chosen, but they are not necessarily true.
Because those statements refer to something that is external to the logic of language. And that is the reason why when I say "it is raining" or "there is a fire" I am causing in you, not only an understanding but also a physical reaction.
There is no difference with the signs that some animals give, when they feel a predator. They understand the signs, but there is something else: a reaction, that has nothing to do with language.
I think you agree that logical system can never reach anything that is not already included and codified within that system.
What I mean by this is: the validity of a proposition has nothing to do with it's truth.
See the third example: "the queen of France is a woman". This is a valid proposition. The predicate/attribute is already in the subject. This could be an analytical proposition. But it isn't. When I say "the queen of France is a woman", I am saying more than that. I am saying" There is a queen in France, and that queen is a woman". And that proposition is valid but false.
But if I say "assuming that there is a queen in France, that supposed queen must be a woman", I am enouncing an analytical proposition.


If I say 'it is raining', and you say that that statement is not necessarily true, then you assert unstated grounds on which the statement 'it is raining' is not based. If I can explain: when I say 'it is raining' you propose, or assume, the statement 'it is not raining', or you would not be able to apply truth to the statement 'it is raining'. Let me call that the empirical assumption, if no-one else has done so.

Logic also has an assumption. It eliminates the particular case but then makes a reference to it (assumes it) by a mapping process. So the proposition "the queen of France is a woman" can reference the particular Queen of France and we may then want to say that the statement is not true. However, when we do this we need to map the proposition of logic to the particular case in order to see if there is a match. We cannot make a match unless the proposition of logic has meaning, but its meaning is taken from the particular case. If the proposition of logic does not assume the meaning of the particular case to make a match, then we simply have a mapping. And a mapping does not demonstrate relationship. Accordingly, we cannot conclude by whatever means, that 'the Queen of France' is either true or false. An expression of its validity then demonstrates no more than a tautology.
So Logic eliminates the particular case yet assumes it. I will call this the logical assumption; even though it appears to be a flaw of Logic.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 07:58 pm
And then there's the problem of WHAT IT IS THAT IS RAINING when we say "it" is raining. There always seems to be an agent of action, even if it has to be invented as a grammatical rule (objective/subject or subject/predicate).
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John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 05:56 am
JLNobody wrote:
And then there's the problem of WHAT IT IS THAT IS RAINING when we say "it" is raining. There always seems to be an agent of action, even if it has to be invented as a grammatical rule (objective/subject or subject/predicate).


That's changing the statement under consideration again. The statement 'it is raining', now becomes 'it is raining whatever it is that rains'.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 03:47 pm
Granted.
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