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Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

 
 
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 08:08 am
Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

Most people see Judas as a traitor in the myth of the crucifixion. Few recognize that Jesus was asking his most trusted disciple, Judas, to turn him over to the Jews and Pilate.

Most are unaware of the meaning of the sop that Jesus gave to Judas at the last supper. Without knowing the definition and meaning of that word, it is not surprising that most think of Judas as they do. The completely wrong way.

A sop is basically a gift or conciliatory bribe, something that seals a deal. That is what Jesus gave Judas, his most trusted disciple. We know he was Jesus’ favorite because he was Jesus’ banker.

Dictionary reference for sop.
Something that is done or given to someone in order to prevent trouble, gain support, etc.
A conciliatory gift or bribe.

Without the betrayal, Jesus would not have died for us, as Yahweh had planned, and scriptures say that Judas also had no choice as that would have derailed god’s plan.

If any blame for Jesus’ death is to be given, it must be to Yahweh, whose plan, scriptures say must come to pass. Meaning that Yahweh would have to control all the players including Judas.

Scriptures show Jesus persuading Judas to do what he would not ordinarily have thought of doing.

Judas believed that Jesus was the messiah who was to rise again to lead the Jews. This lie imposed by Yahweh.

Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor?

Regards
DL
 
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 09:17 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

Most people see Judas as a traitor in the myth of the crucifixion. Few recognize that Jesus was asking his most trusted disciple, Judas, to turn him over to the Jews and Pilate.

Most are unaware of the meaning of the sop that Jesus gave to Judas at the last supper. Without knowing the definition and meaning of that word, it is not surprising that most think of Judas as they do. The completely wrong way.

A sop is basically a gift or conciliatory bribe, something that seals a deal. That is what Jesus gave Judas, his most trusted disciple. We know he was Jesus’ favorite because he was Jesus’ banker.

Dictionary reference for sop.
Something that is done or given to someone in order to prevent trouble, gain support, etc.
A conciliatory gift or bribe.

Without the betrayal, Jesus would not have died for us, as Yahweh had planned, and scriptures say that Judas also had no choice as that would have derailed god’s plan.

If any blame for Jesus’ death is to be given, it must be to Yahweh, whose plan, scriptures say must come to pass. Meaning that Yahweh would have to control all the players including Judas.

Scriptures show Jesus persuading Judas to do what he would not ordinarily have thought of doing.

Judas believed that Jesus was the messiah who was to rise again to lead the Jews. This lie imposed by Yahweh.

Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor?

Regards
DL


It's an interesting question, and maybe he was both.

Quote:

Matthew 26
23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”

Jesus answered, “You have said so.”

So Jesus foresees the woe that befalls Judas after accepting the money and then throwing it away before hanging himself.

Obviously all the sins that led to Christ's death were forgiven when Jesus said, "forgive them father they know not what they are doing."

Just because the sins that killed Christ are forgiven, however, doesn't make them heroic. He died so that we can live eternally despite our sin. So I don't think you can say Judas' actions are heroic, even though Christ dying to save the world is a silver lining around a very dark cloud.

Anytime some tragedy or sin happens that ultimately serves as a building block for something else positive to happen, that doesn't justify the sin or change the tragedy into cause for celebration. It is just the God works in mysterious ways and sometimes bad things nevertheless result in good consequences. It doesn't make them any less bad, though.

Remember, no sin is forgiven because of the good works/deeds of the sinner but because of forgiveness through Christ. So even if you deemed it a good deed to crucify Christ in order that the world be saved from sin, it would still not redeem Judas to have helped Christ to be crucified. Only through Christ can Judas be forgiven/saved, and who knows, maybe there was reconciliation between them in afterlife; only God can know.
Leadfoot
 
  3  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 01:50 pm
Suicide by Cop is a likely scenario but I don’t think it’s the whole explanation.

One theory is that while he had to propagate his message as a man, he of course had a mastery of Asimov's 'Psycho-history' way beyond Harry Seldon's fictional one.

If he hadn’t died as he did, we probably wouldn’t be talking about him.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2020 06:29 pm
@Greatest I am,
For someone that pretends not to take the Bible seriously, stating it a myth - you sure give a lot of time and thought to it.

One can only conclude that the Bible must have great significance in your life (whether good significance, or bad significance). Add to such the many times you've deliberately misinterpreted the Bible for the negative (given Christians do the same to the positive)...I can only conclude whatever your experience was, it was pretty bad. Hence the great significance you put on it (constantly posting about what the Bible says), the perspective you attach to to it (ie. your views), and the condescension that you seem to exude towards other posters.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2020 04:57 am
@Greatest I am,
Judas is indispensable to the story...to the myth, if you will.

Without Judas...there is no story.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2020 10:24 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

For someone that pretends not to take the Bible seriously, stating it a myth - you sure give a lot of time and thought to it.

Calling Bible stories 'myth,' doesn't say anything about their veracity or whether they are fiction or not.

In the common usage of the term, 'myth,' it implies fiction; but in the anthropological usage, it just refers to some story taking on broad cultural significance, whether the story is fact-based or fiction.

So, for example, you could say that the 1980 olympic hockey game between USA and USSR teams where USA won the gold has taken on mythical status for many people, resulting in the movie, Miracle, being made about it; or that various historical figures are mythologized because of their historical significance.

So when people refer to the Bible or the story of Jesus as 'mythical,' to imply that they are fictional and not factual, that is just a subtle way of attempting to discredit religious belief by using the common meaning of 'myth' to imply fiction instead of honoring the anthropological meaning, which really only refers to cultural significant of a story, whether it's fact-based or fictional/made-up.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 06:28 am
I don’t quite get how Judas is key to the story. (Other than to fulfill some prophecies).
In many ways Judas seems unnecessary. If Jesus was such a PITA to the religious leaders at the time, surely they wouldn’t need Judas to point him out for them.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 08:33 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I don’t quite get how Judas is key to the story. (Other than to fulfill some prophecies).
In many ways Judas seems unnecessary. If Jesus was such a PITA to the religious leaders at the time, surely they wouldn’t need Judas to point him out for them.

Someone had to turn him in to the Romans, knowing he would be executed.
Quote:

John 18
29So Pilate went out to them and asked, “What accusation are you bringing against this man?”

30“If He were not a criminal,” they replied, “we would not have handed Him over to you.”

31“You take Him and judge Him by your own law,” Pilate told them.

“We are not permitted to execute anyone,” the Jews replied. 32This was to fulfill the word that Jesus had spoken to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.b
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 02:04 pm
@livinglava,
I don’t get your point. Are you saying that there was no one the religious leaders could get to identify Jesus other than resorting to bribing Judas? Doesn’t seem plausible.

Why wouldn’t one of the temple priests be happy to point the finger? As you pointed out, they were there immediately after to accuse him at the hearing.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 02:31 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I don’t get your point. Are you saying that there was no one the religious leaders could get to identify Jesus other than resorting to bribing Judas? Doesn’t seem plausible.

Apparently it wasn't easy to find Jesus without bribing Judas, otherwise why would they bribe him?

Quote:
Why wouldn’t one of the temple priests be happy to point the finger? As you pointed out, they were there immediately after to accuse him at the hearing.

He was in public then.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 03:16 pm
@livinglava,
I had intended to say the same thing (as Leadfoot) to GIA, only thought it pointless, seeing as he only sees what he wants to see.

Any of the religious leaders could have done the same (point the finger at Jesus to the Romans). They could have done so before he went into hiding, or the other options was that Jesus was to stay in hiding forever (which seems highly unlikely). Or simply for Jesus to make himself available to Gods plan to be carried out. Judas wasn't necessary to the 'God's plan'.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 03:37 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Apparently it wasn't easy to find Jesus without bribing Judas, otherwise why would they bribe him?

Apparently you found him harder to find than I did.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 03:42 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

I had intended to say the same thing (as Leadfoot) to GIA, only thought it pointless, seeing as he only sees what he wants to see.

Any of the religious leaders could have done the same (point the finger at Jesus to the Romans). They could have done so before he went into hiding, or the other options was that Jesus was to stay in hiding forever (which seems highly unlikely). Or simply for Jesus to make himself available to Gods plan to be carried out. Judas wasn't necessary to the 'God's plan'.

There are two possibilities:
1) that the gospels simply report facts as they were observed
2) that the gospels are elaborately-constructed fables designed to convey true spiritual messages without the events actually having to happen in reality, like the story of the boy who cried wolf.

People often try to argue that the stories are inconsistent and/or that they have to be made up; and other people insist that they are stories of factual people and events.

My point is that it ultimately doesn't matter whether they are factual, fables, or some mixture; because what really matters is the spiritual messages and the truth of those. Just as with the boy who cried wolf story, it doesn't ultimately matter whether the story corresponds with factual historical events or whether it was just made up to convey the message that liars aren't believed when they try to tell the truth, because either way the message is true.

So if you can't get on board with the story of Jesus as a factual historical story, I would still highly recommend accepting it for the sake of spiritual salvation, because there's no other escape from sin.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 03:47 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
My point is that it ultimately doesn't matter whether they are factual, fables, or some mixture; because what really matters is the spiritual messages and the truth of those. Just as with the boy who cried wolf story, it doesn't ultimately matter whether the story corresponds with factual historical events or whether it was just made up to convey the message that liars aren't believed when they try to tell the truth, because either way the message is true.

So if you can't get on board with the story of Jesus as a factual historical story, I would still highly recommend accepting it for the sake of spiritual salvation, because there's no other escape from sin.
While I accept almost all of what you say in the first paragraph - You and I see the path to spiritual understanding in very different ways.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 03:56 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
People often try to argue that the stories are inconsistent and/or that they have to be made up; and other people insist that they are stories of factual people and events.
You are of course assuming that was my intent. It wasn’t.

But while we are trading assumptions, here is why I think your approach to debating the Bible is fucked up. You make **** up On the spur of the moment to fit what somebody else taught you instead of thinking for yourself. (Then throw in a few verses for window dressing.)

It is an interesting question about what Judas' motivations were. I doubt we will know here. The true story is no doubt deeply embedded with Judas' own personal struggles to understand. The book is telling Jesus' message, there are lots of other's stories not recorded there.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2020 04:20 pm
Speaking of, it’s been too many years but from memory, 'JC Superstar' made a pretty good stab at a plausible Judas story. If you can get past the assumed 'blasphemy' of a 'Musical'.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 06:21 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
My point is that it ultimately doesn't matter whether they are factual, fables, or some mixture; because what really matters is the spiritual messages and the truth of those. Just as with the boy who cried wolf story, it doesn't ultimately matter whether the story corresponds with factual historical events or whether it was just made up to convey the message that liars aren't believed when they try to tell the truth, because either way the message is true.

So if you can't get on board with the story of Jesus as a factual historical story, I would still highly recommend accepting it for the sake of spiritual salvation, because there's no other escape from sin.
While I accept almost all of what you say in the first paragraph - You and I see the path to spiritual understanding in very different ways.

What an amazingly vague statement. "Accept almost all?" "see the path to spiritual understanding in different ways?"
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 06:31 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
People often try to argue that the stories are inconsistent and/or that they have to be made up; and other people insist that they are stories of factual people and events.
You are of course assuming that was my intent. It wasn’t.

If I was assuming something about you specifically, I would say it.

Quote:
But while we are trading assumptions, here is why I think your approach to debating the Bible is fucked up. You make **** up On the spur of the moment to fit what somebody else taught you instead of thinking for yourself. (Then throw in a few verses for window dressing.)

First, everything you think is 'made up,' whether it is influenced by something you read or otherwise. Our minds create representations and interpretations of everything we perceive or understand. When you think 2+2=4, you're making it up. The fact that it corresponds with the truth is separate from the fact that you made it up, as is whether you made it up from scratch or whether you just copied something you read/heard, and/or whether you copied something you read/heard because you understood it on a deep level and explained it or because you just repeated something dogmatically without understanding it, or while understanding on some level that isn't relevant.

Quote:
It is an interesting question about what Judas' motivations were. I doubt we will know here. The true story is no doubt deeply embedded with Judas' own personal struggles to understand. The book is telling Jesus' message, there are lots of other's stories not recorded there.

I didn't know there was a book here in question. I thought people were just discussing Judas' role in Christ's crucifixion. My understanding is that Jesus said that someone would betray Him at the last supper and then he handed a piece of bread to Judas indicating it was him. Judas then accepted money in exchange for promising to reveal Jesus with a kiss and then threw the money away and hanged himself after his deed. The land where he hanged himself was made into a burial ground, as I recall.

I just made up what I wrote here based on what I remember from reading, but I didn't go look it up, so I didn't make it up by transferring text word for word from a book or by copying/pasting from a web page.

Now what else do you have to make up to criticize me or whatever you come up with to type?
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 12:19 pm
@Greatest I am,
My opinion.
Most trusted and cherished of Immanuels' brethren.

Complied, exactly, with what was dutied unto him.
Died at Massada, btw.

In company with 'essenes' - Great Last Stand!
(If so).

Demonised by ...... you know.

Have a Lovely Day
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 12:21 pm
@Leadfoot,
Why do you comment on topics you know Nothing about?

Have a Lovely Day
0 Replies
 
 

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