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Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

 
 
mark noble
 
  3  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 12:34 pm
@vikorr,
You, too.
Why comment?

Greatest I Am may appear to be 'off the wall', but he's studied everything from plato, epicurus, pliny, josephus, heroditus, lost gospels, gnostic texts, apocrypha, kaballah, Nag Hamadi, Qumran, Petra (Glyphs), Constantine, byzantine.... and so on.

When you folks have spent a lifetime joining 'Dots', please indulge him - You may learn something, Or Not.

I understand Him - And Like him, too.

Have a Lovely Day
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 03:14 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
What an amazingly vague statement. "Accept almost all?" "see the path to spiritual understanding in different ways?"
I didn't bother going into specifics because:
- we've covered this ground before; and
- we disagree; and
- that just resulted in endless circular arguments

If you want the specifics:
- you get your spiritual awareness / belief system out of the bible (or perhaps largely out of the bible)
- I get mine out of what I see in the world

Quote:
My point is that it ultimately doesn't matter whether they are factual, fables, or some mixture; because what really matters is the spiritual messages and the truth of those. Just as with the boy who cried wolf story, it doesn't ultimately matter whether the story corresponds with factual historical events or whether it was just made up to convey the message that liars aren't believed when they try to tell the truth, because either way the message is true.
The bit in red I had some issues with. The rest I had no issue with. So mostly agree.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 03:57 pm
@vikorr,
I agree with both of you - Mostly.

I published a verse, many years ago - No idea what I titled it - Fadeout was this -
Better is a slayer
Who confesses to his kill
Than a pilgrimage of liars
Bearing
'Greetings & Goodwill'.

Oh - It was 'Greetings And Goodwill'

If I ever venture unto my cobwebby (New word:)) bookshelves - I'll furnish other verses - Don't hold breath.

Have a Lovely Day
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 04:01 pm
@mark noble,
Many people hold the same view. To me it has certain truths to it.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2020 04:08 pm
@vikorr,
Please elaborate - Post dissection - Should time and inclination permit...?
Have a Lovely Day
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2020 03:44 am
@mark noble,
Quote:
If I ever venture unto my cobwebby (New word:)) bookshelves - I'll furnish other verses - Don't hold breath.

No prob.
0 Replies
 
DiscipleDave
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 08:17 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am said:
Quote:
Most people see Judas as a traitor in the myth of the crucifixion.


Right off the bat, you have let me know that you don't believe the Word of God and what it teaches.

Quote:
Most are unaware of the meaning of the sop that Jesus gave to Judas at the last supper.


So you choose to believe the verse that says Jesus gave him a sop, but do not believe the verses that says:

Joh_6:70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

And not that verse only you don't believe but you choose to not believe this verse as well

Joh_13:2  And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

So it is apparent you pick and choose which verses in the Word of God that you will believe in and which ones you choose to ignore, make void, or interpret away.

my question to you would then be. Who made you a judge of such matters to determine which verses in the Word of God are True and which ones are false?

Scriptures plainly teach that ALL Scriptures are inspired by God, but you say what? They are NOT. So who should i believe? God who says ALL verses are inspired or you who picks and chooses which verses are inspired and which ones are not inspired by God. Trust God or trust you? Simple choice for me. It is God.
DiscipleDave
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 08:24 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am says "Without the betrayal, Jesus would not have died for us, as Yahweh had planned, and scriptures say that Judas also had no choice as that would have derailed god’s plan.

If any blame for Jesus’ death is to be given, it must be to Yahweh, whose plan, scriptures say must come to pass. Meaning that Yahweh would have to control all the players including Judas."

Judas freely chose to betray Jesus. God did not make him do that thing. Judas obeyed satan and what satan was whispering for him to do. Jesus, knowing this, already knew that Judas would obey satan, and indeed betray Him.
Just as you freely choose to believe this verse and ignore another, Judas had a choice, and he chose to obey satan and not Jesus. You choose to believe this verse and you freely choose to ignore other verses.

Jesus when He chose Judas, already knew that Judas would betray Him. Jesus did not desire Him to do that thing, but KNEW that he would through his own choices Choose to betray Jesus. Jesus did NOT make him, or force him, or called him to betray Him. Judas freely chose to what he did.
DiscipleDave
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 08:29 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am says "Scriptures show Jesus persuading Judas to do what he would not ordinarily have thought of doing."

Again, you are not believing the Scriptures and what they say.

Joh_13:27  And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

So you believe the part of this verse that plainly says Jesus gave him a sop, but do not believe the part in this verse that it was satan who entered into Judas. Again more evidence you pick and choose which verses to believe and which ones you don't want to believe.

Anyways, Jesus was not giving him the ideal to go and betray Him, read the verse over again, Jesus already KNEW what he had in mind to do before Jesus said anything at all.

You seem to think Jesus said "Judas, why don't you go now and set it up to betray me"
Scriptures teach Jesus said "Judas, go and do what you already have in mind to do"

Big difference.
0 Replies
 
DiscipleDave
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2020 08:33 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am says "Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor?"

Jesus was a wicked person who fulfilled the will of God.

God throughout the whole old Testament used wicked Heathens to fulfill His will. Even Pharaoh was a wicked person who God used, so that His Glory shall be revealed. What does Greatest I am think of Pharaoh, that he too was a good man because he fulfilled the Will of God? Pilate fulfilled the Will of God also, by crucifying the Messiah, is Pilate Heaven bound? lol.
mark noble
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 09:50 am
@DiscipleDave,
How Did Judas meet his ends, please Dave?

Have a lovely Day
DiscipleDave
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2020 03:33 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:
How Did Judas meet his ends, please Dave?


Judas after seeing that Jesus was going to be crucified, felt responsible for the death of Jesus. If he would have only believed the Words of Jesus, that he could be forgiven, he might not have killed himself.

Judas walked out of the city, and as he was walking next to a road was a dead tree. There was a rope laying on the ground near by, and satan whispered to Judas, look God left you a rope, you might as well do it, you just killed the Son of God. So he grabbed the rope, climbed up the Tree, tied the rope to the dead limb, and then tied it around his neck. He paused and looked towards the city, and seen the three crosses and then jumped.

So Judas hung himself. Now the limb for a moment was strong enough to hold him, but after a minute or two, it broke. When Judas fell to the ground, a sharp stone protruding from the ground cut his stomach diagonally, and all his insides came gushing out to the ground next to where he lay.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2020 09:05 am
@DiscipleDave,
DiscipleDave wrote:

Greatest I am says "Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor?"

Jesus was a wicked person who fulfilled the will of God.

God throughout the whole old Testament used wicked Heathens to fulfill His will. Even Pharaoh was a wicked person who God used, so that His Glory shall be revealed. What does Greatest I am think of Pharaoh, that he too was a good man because he fulfilled the Will of God? Pilate fulfilled the Will of God also, by crucifying the Messiah, is Pilate Heaven bound? lol.


Did you really man Jesus in that second sentence...or was it a Freudian slip?
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2020 09:08 am
Yeah, that was interesting.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2020 06:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
He appears to be speaking as if he were GreatestIam - so he meant it to be that way. At least, that is how I read it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2020 09:18 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

He appears to be speaking as if he were GreatestIam - so he meant it to be that way. At least, that is how I read it.


Just seems weird to me. We'll see what he says...if he addresses it.
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2020 03:23 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:


Remember, no sin is forgiven because of the good works/deeds of the sinner but because of forgiveness through Christ. So even if you deemed it a good deed to crucify Christ in order that the world be saved from sin, it would still not redeem Judas to have helped Christ to be crucified. Only through Christ can Judas be forgiven/saved, and who knows, maybe there was reconciliation between them in afterlife; only God can know.


You must hate Jesus.

On Jesus dying for you.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2020 03:26 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Suicide by Cop is a likely scenario but I don’t think it’s the whole explanation.

One theory is that while he had to propagate his message as a man, he of course had a mastery of Asimov's 'Psycho-history' way beyond Harry Seldon's fictional one.

If he hadn’t died as he did, we probably wouldn’t be talking about him.


Correct. There would have been no Christianity or inquisitions or people who adore a genocidal and infanticidal satanic god.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2020 03:32 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Quote:

For someone that pretends not to take the Bible seriously, stating it a myth - you sure give a lot of time and thought to it.


I have to. given the harm Christianity does to gays and women, not to mention having otherwise semi-moral people adoring a genocidal satanic god.

The Golden Rule forces me to try to save those immoral Christians.

Quote:

One can only conclude that the Bible must have great significance in your life (whether good significance, or bad significance).


It is important as I learned much of my morals from it.

That is why I fight your interpretations. I chose the good as scriptures tell me to while you chose the evil while calling it good.

I hope you learn how to read your bible some day.

Quote:
Add to such the many times you've deliberately misinterpreted the Bible for the negative (given Christians do the same to the positive)...I can only conclude whatever your experience was, it was pretty bad. Hence the great significance you put on it (constantly posting about what the Bible says), the perspective you attach to to it (ie. your views), and the condescension that you seem to exude towards other posters.


It is indeed significant, but you seem to like to lie about me, Christian.

Show where I misrepresented anything you G D liar.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2020 03:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Judas is indispensable to the story...to the myth, if you will.

Without Judas...there is no story.


I agree.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
 

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