Churches hating Jew's

Moishe3rd wrote:

Thank you for your anti-Semitic articles.
I appreciate your efforts to discover biased and bigoted news stories from those that hate Israel.

Amnesty International is anti-semitic?
"Scoop" is anti-semitic?
WorldNetDaily is anti-semitic?
I confess that I'm not terribly familiar with the organization "If Americans Knew," but the data they present comes from the Israeli Defense Force, the U.S. Government, the Red Crescent (the Arabic counterpart to the Red Cross), the United Nations, etc. Are all of these entities in on what you apparently believe is an anti-semitic conspiracy of global scope?

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I was a little bit unsure of Constitutional Girl's premise that just because certain people hate Israel, that this necessarily means that they hate Jews.
Sigh.
I should know better.
But, I always have the hope that those who dislike Israel have some rational basis for their hatreds. Maybe a point of discussion or two.
But this is not the case.

I had assumed from your ability to write that you were also able to read--I should have known better.

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And, while I am disgustingly sarcastic with your last response, I am also genuinely curious -
Where does this anti-Jewish bias come from?
Is it something you simply tried on one day and decided it looked good on you, or is it something deeper? Did "the Jews" do something to you? Are you Muslim?
Just curious.

My only biases are against bull$hit (unless it's really, really amusing bull$hit), the powerful who beat up on the weak (especially those who do so then claim the title 'victim' for themselves), and the willfully obtuse. My question for you is how long have you hated Arabs? There's no use denying it--your anti-Arabic rhetoric and knee-jerk acceptance of pro-Israeli propaganda makes this obvious. How is it that you feel that one Israeli is worth three Palestinians, or worse, that one Israeli child is worth six Palestinian children? Even at the height of institutionalized U.S. racism (i.e., during slavery), people of African descent were considered 3/5 of a 'person'; that's horrible, but you define a Palestinian as only 1/3 of a person. The numbers speak for themselves; get the wax out of your ears and listen.

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au1929: If this were a game of chess, I'd have to swat you for suggesting the appropriate move to my 'opponent'; however, since we are searching for greater understanding and knowledge, I'll thank you for providing some of the actual evidence I've been requesting from brahmin. Were you able to find any other sources? The only source of comparable statistical information provided in the report was for 2002 and 2003 when the European Union Monitoring Center observed "notable increases [of anti-semitic crimes] in France, Germany, the United Kingdom, Belgium, and the Netherlands." The report certainly demonstrates that anti-semitism is still a problem, but then nobody here has argued that it isn't still a problem (i.e., no one here has claimed that anti-semitism is dead or dying). The argument has been about whether or not anti-semitism (acts, attitudes, etc) is on the rise; so far, the 2002-2003 increase is the only nugget supporting the contention that it's on the rise. For those who want to prove that this is truly the case, I suggest looking at the European Union Monitoring Center (just put that into Google and you'll find without problem). I found a recent report on racism in Europe, but it didn't seem to delineate specifically anti-semitic crime from racist crime in general (it's a 200-300 page report and I didn't have time to do anything but skim it). There were other reports on the site; maybe someone will have better luck than I did at finding the relevant data.

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Mills75
All this killing you speak of is the result of the Intefada. An intefada started and carried on by those apparently near and dear to your heart. The Palestinians.
What would you have the Israeli's do? Sit back while the Palistinian suicide squards bomb busses,markets,night clubs and etc. They like any nation has retaliated and attempted to take out their tormentors. I wonder whether, if it were not Jews, the worlds scapegoat, taking this action you would protest as loudly if at all.

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au1929 wrote:

Mills75
All this killing you speak of is the result of the Intefada. An intefada started and carried on by those apparently near and dear to your heart. The Palestinians.
What would you have the Israeli's do? Sit back while the Palistinian suicide squards bomb busses,markets,night clubs and etc. They like any nation has retaliated and attempted to take out their tormentors. I wonder whether, if it were not Jews, the worlds scapegoat, taking this action you would protest as loudly if at all.

That's a little like saying the Wounded Knee massacre of 1890 was the result of rebellious behavior carried out by the Lakota. 'Intifada', which literally translates as 'shaking off', is the Arabic word for uprising or rebellion. After decades of oppressive occupation by a foreign power and Israel's failure to keep its promises to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank which were made during the 1993 peace negotiations that ended the first Intifada, what would you have them do? Christ, the Americans revolted against the British because of taxes and occasionally having to let British soldiers bunk in their homes; Palestinians are (given current developments, hopefully we can say "were" instead) forced from their homes to make way for the expansions of Israeli settlements; their crops are destroyed (or they're simply prevented from harvesting them) as revenge by Israelis, etc. People who have rebelled for much less are hailed as heroes in the U.S.

The only bright spot is the recent cease-fire that's been called and Israel's good-faith removal of some of its settlements in Gaza and the return of Jericho to the Palestinians. This is a very positive step that Israel has taken and hopefully it will lead to real progress towards peace between these peoples.

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Since 9/11, I believe there are more hate for Jew's in the US, and I believe it will get worse.

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I used to hate jews, but then I found out that they don't actually make those chewy Squirrel peanut candies.

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brahmin wrote:

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4109_12.htm

That's the ticket! Statistically generalizable and longitudinal data--do you see the difference? This link gives us the results of a survey of randomly selected adult Americans, the survey instrument and an explanation of how anti-semitism was defined (which is important because it allows the reader to accurately judge the merit of the study). Arguing that anti-Semitism is on the rise because a few cemeteries were vandalized is not a compelling argument; arguing that anti-semitism is on the rise because a well-constructed survey of randomly selected Americans shows that the number of Americans holding deeply anti-semitic beliefs is up to 17% in 2002 from 12% in 1998 is, however, a good argument.

I concede the point. The U.S. population is still below the 1992 level of 20% (this was the first year that the ADL commissioned the survey), but 17% is nothing to feel safe and secure about.

Going back to the original argument, is being against the way Israel is handling their conflict with the Palestinians the same as being anti-semitic? The ADL survey you've found shows that people rated as 'anti-semitic' were about 20% more likely to feel the U.S. favors Israel too much, but over 50% of Americans in general felt this way. This suggests that, while holding anti-semitic beliefs makes someone somewhat more likely to have anti-Israel beliefs, anti-semitism and anti-Israel are not synonymous. Indeed, the people who were rated least anti-semitic--college students and faculty--are the driving force behind most anti-Israel rallies and divestment drives.

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ebrown_p wrote:

ConstitutionalGirl,

You are making a logical error (I don't know whether it is intentional or not).

Opposing the actions of the State of Israel does not equal hatred of Jews. They are two completely seperate issues. There are Jews who oppose the actions of the State of Israel. What do you make of that?

Did people who divested from South Africa do so because they hated the Dutch?

Perhaps. When Holland formed as a country, not all the tribes that settled it were immediately related. Not all "Germans" are truly called "German", nor all "French" rightly called "French". I know enough people from New Zealand, Holland, and South Africa of "Dutch" ancestry to notice that they seem to be ethnically divergent, which may have caused a rift in Holland all along, leading to the parting of diferrent tribal strains at length. Not all Frenchmen would have left France and insisted on calling their spreading domain in Canada "Accadia". The Germanii and the Allamani are not the same people in what we call "Germany".
None the less, there are many Israelis that feel pressured to despise their own rights simply to survive international hatred of them.

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What are these rights that many Israelis feel pressured to despise?

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petros wrote:

When Holland formed as a country, not all the tribes that settled it were immediately related. The Germanii and the Allamani are not the same people in what we call "Germany".

when did this forming of holland take place and which are the "tribes" of holland?
who are the accadia? are they a norman tribe in france?

and finally how are the germanii tribes (ostro and visi goths? franks? which else ?) different from the Allamani tribes (so i now know why the french call the germans, "Alemagne") and what are these Allamani tribes?

please let me know. i know precious little about them. if there are good websites which could be helpful then pls tell me a few.

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Mills75
Are you trying to sell the Idea that Anti-Semitism has no relationship to peoples feeling about Israel. These people hate Jews and only regret that Hitler's final solution was not entirely successful. They live in the hope that the Arabs would be.
That is not to say that all that disagree with the actions of the Israeli's are infected with the disease of Anti Semites. However, with many it is an ingrained response and colors their response.

Can you deny that?
You wrote

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. Arguing that anti-Semitism is on the rise because a few cemeteries were vandalized is not a compelling statement

What would you consider a telling statement? Lining Jews up over an open pit and shooting them.

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au1929 wrote:

Mills75
Are you trying to sell the Idea that Anti-Semitism has no relationship to peoples feeling about Israel. These people hate Jews and only regret that Hitler's final solution was not entirely successful. They live in the hope that the Arabs would be.
That is not to say that all that disagree with the actions of the Israeli's are infected with the disease of Anti Semites. However, with many it is an ingrained response and colors their response.

Can you deny that?

You're not reading my posts very carefully, are you? I've written that holding anti-semitic attitudes would make someone more likely to be anti-Israel; Brahmin's link shows this (20% more likely in the case of Americans). My point, from the beginning, has been that being critical of Israel is not equivalent to being anti-semitic.

No one, and I'm repeating this because it's already been stated, has argued that anti-semitism isn't a problem; and nobody has argued that it isn't an odious mental paradigm that many people are infected with. It simply is not correct to state that anyone who disagrees with Israel and finds their treatment of Palestinians sickening hates Jews. This isn't even true most of the time--the ADL survey demonstrates that.

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You wrote

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. Arguing that anti-Semitism is on the rise because a few cemeteries were vandalized is not a compelling statement

What would you consider a telling statement? Lining Jews up over an open pit and shooting them.

This is a contention of the simplest logic (and again, you didn't read the post carefully).

If Brahmin (B.--pardon me for talking about you in the 3rd person; I'm trying to make a point, not be rude) had stated that 'several Jewish cemeteries were vandalized and anti-semitic graffiti was found, thus anti-semitism is still a problem'; then he would have made a sound argument because his contention that anti-semitism is still a problem is supported by the evidence presented. Even one act of anti-semitism is one act too many. However, Brahmin's contention, based on this and similarly anecdotal evidence, was that anti-semitism is on the rise; in order to logically conclude this, one must have data showing that the number of incidences in one time period is greater than the number of incidences in a previous time period (i.e., longitudinal data). The links Brahmin had initially supplied did not support this contention (and in one case actually refuted it--according to one of the links, anti-semitic attitudes were down in most European countries), but the link to the ADL survey of American anti-semitic attitudes (http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4109_12.htm) provides precisely this sort of data, which is why I praised Brahmin for finally providing the data I had been requesting (I wasn't being sarcastic; I had become sincerely interested in the question of whether or not anti-semitism is on the rise, but had not seen any evidence to that effect until Brahmin found that last ADL link and shared it with us). This survey (which was, I believe, the last link Brahmin supplied on this topic) shows the percentage of Americans with deeply held anti-semitic beliefs for 1992, 1998, and 2002. Thus we can compare and discover whether or not anti-semitism is truly rising--and it has from 1998 to 2002. Do we know if it's continued to rise? No. However, since the most current data we have shows a rising trend (in America, at least), we should operate under that assumption until more current data shows otherwise.

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Paul Johnson, pre-eminent Bristish historian, today, July 7, 2005:
"The Arab countries have had all of this money where they could have improved their countries in a tremendous way and they have spent it all trying to destroy Israel."
He referred to the above kind of anti-semitism as a mental disease. He commented that it is destroying the Arab countries just as it destroyed Germany under the Nazis.

The point about being anti-Israeli is encapsulated by the above ideas.
The Arab countries surrounding Israel adopted a fascist, totalitarian philosophy during the early 1900's and have incorporated it into the religion of Islam.
All of the current Middle Eastern; Balkan and North African countries were created in the twentieth century. Millions of dispossessed peoples were moved from one country or region to another because of wars and treaties. Borders were redrawn and redrawn again. Millions of people were killed by the "other" ethnic; religious; cutural; tribal; national group.

However, it is only Israel whom the Arabs called Palestinians; the Arab countries in particular; Islam in general; and large parts of the world at large; specifically wishes to obliterate.
It is only Israel that "stands in the way of peace."
It is only Israel, with its multicultural; multi-ethnic; multireligious; multinational population of Israelis, unlike any other neighboring or near neighboring country, that is racist or oppressive.
Israel is "the problem."

So, the reasoning behind this bizarre focus on Israel is not because they are Jewish but because they are democratic? Industrial? Multicultural? Advanced? Free? Secular? What?
Only Israel is condemned because... Why?
If you want to condemn Israel for being too advanced and should therefore "know better," then the corrollary is absolute - the surrounding gangster nations are barbarians and not to be trusted - including the Arabs called Palestinians.

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Mills
Is anti-Semitism on the rise? I would argue it is the same as it has always been. IMO The only difference is that it had become unpopular to voice those sentiments because of the holocaust. However, the combination of Israel and the 60 years that have gone by since the holocaust has made it less unpopular. In addition how many people in this politically correct era would admit to being Anti-Semitic, Racist or etc.

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not Sergent Drake for sure Wink

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au1929 wrote:

Mills
Is anti-Semitism on the rise? I would argue it is the same as it has always been. IMO The only difference is that it had become unpopular to voice those sentiments because of the holocaust. However, the combination of Israel and the 60 years that have gone by since the holocaust has made it less unpopular. In addition how many people in this politically correct era would admit to being Anti-Semitic, Racist or etc.

Is it on the rise globally? I don't know. It likely was in America from 1998 to 2002. Well designed surveys that guarantee anonymity or confidentiality are usually pretty good at measuring attitudes, even unpopular ones (people usually really like sharing what they 'really think' when they feel it won't come back and bite them in the a$$). I read the methodology section of the survey Brahmin found and am satisfied--the survey seems to measure what it's supposed to measure, the sampling should make the results generalizable (to America), and the same survey has been administered in three different years. The survey provides compelling evidence that, while anti-semitic attitudes in America are not as high as they were in 1992, they did increase from 1998 to 2002. I don't know if the trend has continued, but see no reason to assume it hasn't.

You might very well be correct. There are possible explanations of the survey results other than an increase in the number of Americans holding anti-semitic beliefs--random sampling is the best way for generalizable results, but you still sometimes wind up with a skewed sample; participants might not have thought the survey was truly confidential or anonymous; etc. Or, as you suggested, it may be that people just feel more free to voice such attitudes. However, the design and methodology was sound. Hell, maybe anti-semites just breed faster...

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Moishe3rd: the focus is on Israel because it's controversial--people disagree as to whether or not Israel is in the right or the wrong. There's little debate about whether or not Syria, Iran, and our pal Saudi Arabia need some serious lessons on human rights. There's no debate that most of the Arabic countries are guilty of grave wrongs. However, for decades Israel has been portrayed as the heroic bulwark again barbarity in the Middle East--always the defender, never the offender; as it turns out, this simply isn't the case. Israel is guilty of wrongs as well.

To claim that Israel is receiving unfair attention because we're not still debating what's already established simply doesn't make sense.

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Mills75 wrote:

Moishe3rd: the focus is on Israel because it's controversial--people disagree as to whether or not Israel is in the right or the wrong. There's little debate about whether or not Syria, Iran, and our pal Saudi Arabia need some serious lessons on human rights. There's no debate that most of the Arabic countries are guilty of grave wrongs. However, for decades Israel has been portrayed as the heroic bulwark again barbarity in the Middle East--always the defender, never the offender; as it turns out, this simply isn't the case. Israel is guilty of wrongs as well.

To claim that Israel is receiving unfair attention because we're not still debating what's already established simply doesn't make sense.

Actually, I agree with you as to why the world is focused on Israel. I believe it for religious reasons also.
But,
Although I did use the word "focus" once, I was largely referring to the condemnation of Israel to the exclusion of condemning its neighbors.
The world has not been condemning Israel's neighbors for their murders; rapacious greed; civil unrest; barbaric tribalisms; blind predjudice; their obscenely wealthy keptocracy which use their power to crush their own citizens; their hatred of other religions; persecution of women; the disgusting fashion in which these people have been conducting their affairs...
The world has been condemning Israel for the treatment of the Arabs called Palestinians.
These Arabs called Palestinians are part and parcel of the above neighboring Arabs who have been trying wipe out; obliterate; totally eradicate Israel since its inception.
So again, if the Arabs called Palestinians are part of the barbaric peoples who have indeed been murdering and pillaging their own peoples since their inceptions as countries, why is it that Israel, which does not kill women for having sex; which does not murder its own people in order to settle affairs; which does not exclude all other religious observance except Islam; which does not have a tribal class of rich kleptocrats.... why is it that Israel is considered "the greatest threat to world peace" by Europeans; its Arab neighbors; and, possibly, by you?

Note: I am trying to refrain from personal attacks here, but it does frustrate me when people try to explain how they don't like Israel, but it has nothing to do with Judaism.

On a scale of Evil from 1-10 with 1 being the least harmful and 10 being the most harmful, Israel gets a big fat Zero compared to any of its neighbors, including the Arabs called Palestinians in the Middle East.
Now, if you disagree with that statement, then tell me why. What other neighboring country is more benign than Israel?
If you agree with that statement, then why is it Israel's fault that they are under seige?

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Actually, I agree with you as to why the world is focused on Israel. I believe it for religious reasons also.
But,
Although I did use the word "focus" once, I was largely referring to the condemnation of Israel to the exclusion of condemning its neighbors.
The world has not been condemning Israel's neighbors for their murders; rapacious greed; civil unrest; barbaric tribalisms; blind predjudice; their obscenely wealthy keptocracy which use their power to crush their own citizens; their hatred of other religions; persecution of women; the disgusting fashion in which these people have been conducting their affairs...

The world has not been letting Israel's neighbors off the hook for their human rights abuses; that simply isn't news anymore. There are myriad groups protesting the injustices of these nations; probably more than are focused on Israel.

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The world has been condemning Israel for the treatment of the Arabs called Palestinians.
These Arabs called Palestinians are part and parcel of the above neighboring Arabs who have been trying wipe out; obliterate; totally eradicate Israel since its inception.
So again, if the Arabs called Palestinians are part of the barbaric peoples who have indeed been murdering and pillaging their own peoples since their inceptions as countries, why is it that Israel, which does not kill women for having sex; which does not murder its own people in order to settle affairs; which does not exclude all other religious observance except Islam; which does not have a tribal class of rich kleptocrats.... why is it that Israel is considered "the greatest threat to world peace" by Europeans; its Arab neighbors; and, possibly, by you?

I've never heard Israel described as "the greatest threat to world peace," and I'm a pretty avid consumer of news. Before we confuse the issue with talk of the internal injustices of middle eastern countries, let's focus on the Palestinian question. Should we lump Palestinians in with the Arab countries? Probably not. Unlike other Arab nations, the Palestinians are a wholly occupied people--while the Palestinian Authority manages relatively small scale municipal affairs (education, healthcare, public works, etc.), Israel has the ultimate political authority over the Palestinians. The Palestinians, unlike the neighboring Arab countries, control few resources and have only a small, weak military. In short, while the other Arab countries have more or less political autonomy, the Palestinians are an occupied people. Add to this the fact that Israel has forced Palestinians from their homes, has traditionally dealt with them in bad faith, and responds to attacks made by individuals or small groups operating independently of the Palestinian Authority with what amounts to revenge against Palestinians in general. The Palestinians have a right to be pissed; Israel simply hasn't dealt with them in a just manner. (And I sincerely hope that I can continue to use the past tense--as I've mentioned, Israel has taken important steps to resolving the conflict.)

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Note: I am trying to refrain from personal attacks here, but it does frustrate me when people try to explain how they don't like Israel, but it has nothing to do with Judaism.

And your efforts are much appreciated. However, I don't understand what's so hard to understand--I greatly dislike the regime currently in power over my country, yet I love my country. Despite grievous errors in international and domestic policy and legislation being made by the leaders of my country that I believe will create and perpetuate injustice both here and abroad, I still love my country and wouldn't willingly live anywhere else. However, my discontent obliges me to speak out and work against the wrongs I perceive. I've never said that I don't like Israel; I have a great deal of respect for Israel and the Israelis I've known have been good people (though I'm sure Israel, like any other nation, has its share of a$$holes). It's simply the case that Israel's government deals unjustly with the Palestinian people under their occupation. There's even a growing number of Israelis who disagree with their government's treatment of the Palestinians.

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On a scale of Evil from 1-10 with 1 being the least harmful and 10 being the most harmful, Israel gets a big fat Zero compared to any of its neighbors, including the Arabs called Palestinians in the Middle East.
Now, if you disagree with that statement, then tell me why. What other neighboring country is more benign than Israel?

Israel is far from benign. If Israel seems less hostile towards her neighbors than her neighbors are towards her, perhaps it's because Israel hasn't had a foreign power give a chunk of her backyard to a largely foreign people.

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Mills75 wrote:

Moishe3rd wrote:
On a scale of Evil from 1-10 with 1 being the least harmful and 10 being the most harmful, Israel gets a big fat Zero compared to any of its neighbors, including the Arabs called Palestinians in the Middle East.
Now, if you disagree with that statement, then tell me why. What other neighboring country is more benign than Israel?
Israel is far from benign. If Israel seems less hostile towards her neighbors than her neighbors are towards her, perhaps it's because Israel hasn't had a foreign power give a chunk of her backyard to a largely foreign people.

I can appreciate the rest of your statements. I disagree with them, but I understand them at least.
Nonetheless, the above sums up my viewpoint and your response.
(Incidentally, the "Israel is the Greatest Threat to World Peace" was a Euro poll taken in 2003)
The fact is that Greece; Turkey; Armenia; Iran; Iraq; Afghanistan; Pakistan; India; Bangledesh; Syria; Lebanon; Jordan; Yemen; Egypt; and Libya have all had a large (some smaller, some larger) chunk of their backyards given to a largely foreign people by a foreign power - assuming you are discussing the United Nations. All of the above countries had their borders negotiated and drawn up by various foreign powers, including the UN and neighboring countries. Most of the above countries' borders and ethnicities were settled after years of warfare. Some of them are still fighting. Many of them involved massive population exchanges or shifts of one people to another country - sometimes in the millions. Sometimes this was done voluntarily, sometimes not.
I have only named Israel's regional neighbors. I am sure you are also aware that this "foreign power giving of a chunk of her backyard to a largely foreign people" has happened throughout the Balkans and all of Europe and most of Africa.
Everywhere else, this goes under such names as "treaty settlements;" or simply the winner of the war gets to dictate the circumstances of the loser...
Again, why should Israel be different than every other nation?

And again, I specifically ask, if the Arabs called Palestinians, and the Arab countries surrounding Israel are significantly more harmful to themselves; their neighbors; and to the world, why is Israel blamed as being more harmful to them, when this is not true?

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