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Rove was the source of the Plame leak... so it appears

 
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:13 pm
"Whats done in the dark shall come to light" check out the rove poll.......25% of americans fell the white house is not cooperating.3/4 feel Rove should be fired.3/4 feel it's very serious
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:20 pm
sozobe wrote:
Tico, the response to what?

There are raising questions, and then there is the manner in which they are raised.


The responses to my questions concerning Ms. Plame's status as a "covert agent."

On July 11th I asked whether it had ever been established if Plame was in fact a "covert agent"

The first person to respond was you, saying:
soz wrote:
I don't think there's any doubt that she was, in fact, a covert agent.


After wading through many, many pages of responses telling me, "of course she was a covert agent," or asking me whether I think Fitzgerald or the CIA were morons, we finally began to explore the relevant legal definition of the term.

On July 12th I asked Parados to tell me what is the set of facts that apply to Valerie Plame that cause her to meet this definition of "covert agent"

On July 14th, I restated my original question, pointing out that it was a requirement that Ms. Plame have served outside the US in the last five years

Of course I'm leaving out a lot, but I asked the questions, and I asked them in a straightforward manner. But the question remains unanswered. Parados believes it's classified information.

As I said, good luck getting a satisfactory answer to your queries.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:34 pm
The interesting thing here, to me, is:

Bush and Rove et al could come clean and level with everything they know about the case, at any time, to the American people. But they won't.

Money line from Scottie's demolishing today goes to Helen Thomas:

Quote:
Q: What is his problem? Two years, and he can't call Rove in and find out what the hell is going on? I mean, why is it so difficult to find out the facts? It costs thousands, millions of dollars, two years, it tied up how many lawyers? All he's got to do is call him in.

MR. McCLELLAN: You just heard from the President. He said he doesn't know all the facts. I don't know all the facts.

Q: Why?

MR. McCLELLAN: We want to know what the facts are. Because --

Q: Why doesn't he ask him?


Why doesn't Bush know the facts? Can't he just ask the people in his admin to tell him what they know?

As Helen said, why waste so much taxpayer money?

Cycloptichorn
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:36 pm
Tico makes a good point. Palme has not been a covert agent for several years. The issue is fabricated nonsense.

Odd isn't it that those who most assiduously aplaud MarK Felt's continued covert leaks to the press over Watergate - and other matters - are so prominent in demanding Rove's scalp. What was the difference between their behaviors here?

Of course it will be asserted that Nixon was the apotheosis of all that is evil and any action taken against him, no matter what the motivation or legal status of the action itself - was certainly justified.

Palme invited counterattack when she proposed her husband for the investigation of the Niger matter - an evident conflict of interest, and an action quite obviously taken with a political agenda in mind - as Wilson's analysis of the Niger matter so clearly demonstrated.

Felt was obviously motivated by resentment at the restoration of normal executuve department control of the FBI after Herbert Hoover's death and the quite understandable appointment of a "controllable" outsider (L. Patrick Grey) as the new Director, instead of one of Hoover's former deputies (Felt prominently among them). Woodward and Bernstein made their careers on this matter and it is no surprise to see their enthusiastic - if a bit tortured - defense of their vindictive snitch in this matter.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:37 pm
It cause Bush might be involved too! LOL
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:40 pm
As the republican Bush supporters here on a2k like to point out, Bush was elected by the people which renders, in their minds, his creditials. The same majority now think Bush Administration is not cooperating with the Plame investiagtion. The lastest poll (realeased an hour ago) finds 75% do not think the Bush Admin is co-operating with the Plame investigation (generally referred to as stone-walling)
July 18, 2005 ?- Just a quarter of Americans think the White House is fully cooperating in the federal investigation of the leak of a CIA operative's identity, a number that's declined sharply since the investigation began. And three-quarters say that if presidential adviser Karl Rove was responsible for leaking classified information, it should cost him his job.

Quote:
Skepticism about the administration's cooperation has jumped. As the initial investigation began in September 2003, nearly half the public, 47 percent, believed the White House was fully cooperating. That fell to 39 percent a few weeks later, and it's lower still, 25 percent, in this new ABC News poll.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 02:45 pm
How high do right wingers think they can stack their Bullshit before they bury themselves
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 03:02 pm
They have announced on the radio that the Shrub has promised to fire anyone found guilty of a crime in the matter. Note the language: if Rove is definitely outed, they'll backpeddle furiously to claim that no crime has been committed.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 03:03 pm
They're used to it by now. They can't smell it any more. LOL
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 03:11 pm
Rove got fired for the same thing while working for Bush Sr. the person he leaked to that time was...........NOVAK.But don't believe me. I'm a left wing terrorist loving traitor.Check the facts
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 03:38 pm
Amigo wrote:
Rove got fired for the same thing while working for Bush Sr. the person he leaked to that time was...........NOVAK.But don't believe me. I'm a left wing terrorist loving traitor.Check the facts


You musta missed - or forgot - This.

But don't believe me (or Timber) ... check the facts.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 03:54 pm
That is indeed a wee bit selective, Tico.

I post this list as "pending" not in terms of "them lefties are dodging" but in terms of "nobody knows." And nobody does seem to know, for sure. Yet, anyway.

It seems likely, and reasonable hypotheses have been presented as to why (such as, it seems like that's a pillar of the whole investigation.)

At any rate, my overriding purpose is to try to identify the core issues, rather than going over the same stuff over and over again.
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kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:10 pm
Setanta wrote:
They have announced on the radio that the Shrub has promised to fire anyone found guilty of a crime in the matter. Note the language: if Rove is definitely outed, they'll backpeddle furiously to claim that no crime has been committed.


Exactly. Now who on earth, besides a complete pinhead, could hear that and still feel that Bush has any f*cking integrity at all.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:13 pm
All the Bush supporters that's still trying to make a case for Rove's innocence.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:16 pm
Bush has no integrity because he won't fire a staffer who has not been convircted, charged, or even accused of any crime or wrongdoing?

If this former federal prosecutor did his homework, Valerie Plame was outed a long time ago....and not by anybody in the Bush administration:

Did the CIA "Out" Valerie Plame?
What the mainstream media tells the court ... but won't tell you.

With each passing day, the manufactured "scandal" over the publication of Valerie Plame's relationship with the CIA establishes new depths of mainstream-media hypocrisy. A highly capable special prosecutor is probing the underlying facts, and it is appropriate to withhold legal judgments until he completes the investigation over which speculation runs so rampant. But it is not too early to assess the performance of the press. It's been appalling.

Is that hyperbole? You be the judge. Have you heard that the CIA is actually the source responsible for exposing Plame's covert status? Not Karl Rove, not Bob Novak, not the sinister administration cabal du jour of Fourth Estate fantasy, but the CIA itself? Had you heard that Plame's cover has actually been blown for a decade ?- i.e., since about seven years before Novak ever wrote a syllable about her? Had you heard not only that no crime was committed in the communication of information between Bush administration officials and Novak, but that no crime could have been committed because the governing law gives a person a complete defense if an agent's status has already been compromised by the government?

No, you say, you hadn't heard any of that. You heard that this was the crime of the century. A sort of Robert-Hanssen-meets-Watergate in which Rove is already cooked and we're all just waiting for the other shoe ?- or shoes ?- to drop on the den of corruption we know as the Bush administration. That, after all, is the inescapable impression from all the media coverage. So who is saying different?

The organized media, that's who. How come you haven't heard? Because they've decided not to tell you. Because they say one thing ?- one dark, transparently partisan thing ?- when they're talking to you in their news coverage, but they say something completely different when they think you're not listening.

You see, if you really want to know what the media think of the Plame case ?- if you want to discover what a comparative trifle they actually believe it to be ?- you need to close the paper and turn off the TV. You need, instead, to have a peek at what they write when they're talking to a court. It's a mind-bendingly different tale.

SPUN FROM THE START
My colleague Cliff May has already demonstrated the bankruptcy of the narrative the media relentlessly spouts for Bush-bashing public consumption: to wit, that Valerie Wilson, nee Plame, was identified as a covert CIA agent by the columnist Robert Novak, to whom she was compromised by an administration official. In fact, it appears Plame was first outed to the general public as a result of a consciously loaded and slyly hypothetical piece by the journalist David Corn. Corn's source appears to have been none other than Plame's own husband, former ambassador and current Democratic-party operative Joseph Wilson ?- that same pillar of national security rectitude whose notion of discretion, upon being dispatched by the CIA for a sensitive mission to Niger, was to write a highly public op-ed about his trip in the New York Times. This isn't news to the media; they have simply chosen not to report it.

The hypocrisy, though, only starts there. It turns out that the media believe Plame was outed long before either Novak or Corn took pen to paper. And not by an ambiguous confirmation from Rove or a nod-and-a-wink from Ambassador Hubby. No, the media think Plame was previously compromised by a disclosure from the intelligence community itself ?- although it may be questionable whether there was anything of her covert status left to salvage at that point, for reasons that will become clear momentarily.

This CIA disclosure, moreover, is said to have been made not to Americans at large but to Fidel Castro's anti-American regime in Cuba, whose palpable incentive would have been to "compromise[] every operation, every relationship, every network with which [Plame] had been associated in her entire career" ?- to borrow from the diatribe in which Wilson risibly compared his wife's straits to the national security catastrophes wrought by Aldrich Ames and Kim Philby.


THE MEDIA GOES TO COURT ... AND SINGS A DIFFERENT TUNE
Just four months ago, 36 news organizations confederated to file a friend-of-the-court brief in the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington. At the time, Bush-bashing was (no doubt reluctantly) confined to an unusual backseat. The press had no choice ?- it was time to close ranks around two of its own, namely, the Times's Judith Miller and Time's Matthew Cooper, who were threatened with jail for defying grand jury subpoenas from the special prosecutor.

The media's brief, fairly short and extremely illuminating, is available here. The Times, which is currently spearheading the campaign against Rove and the Bush administration, encouraged its submission. It was joined by a "who's who" of the current Plame stokers, including ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, Newsweek, Reuters America, the Washington Post, the Tribune Company (which publishes the Los Angeles Times and the Baltimore Sun, among other papers), and the White House Correspondents (the organization which represents the White House press corps in its dealings with the executive branch).

The thrust of the brief was that reporters should not be held in contempt or forced to reveal their sources in the Plame investigation. Why? Because, the media organizations confidently asserted, no crime had been committed. Now, that is stunning enough given the baleful shroud the press has consciously cast over this story. Even more remarkable, though, were the key details these self-styled guardians of the public's right to know stressed as being of the utmost importance for the court to grasp ?- details those same guardians have assiduously suppressed from the coverage actually presented to the public.

Though you would not know it from watching the news, you learn from reading the news agencies' brief that the 1982 law prohibiting disclosure of undercover agents' identities explicitly sets forth a complete defense to this crime. It is contained in Section 422 (of Title 50, U.S. Code), and it provides that an accused leaker is in the clear if, sometime before the leak, "the United States ha[s] publicly acknowledged or revealed" the covert agent's "intelligence relationship to the United States[.]"

As it happens, the media organizations informed the court that long before the Novak revelation (which, as noted above, did not disclose Plame's classified relationship with the CIA), Plame's cover was blown not once but twice. The media based this contention on reporting by the indefatigable Bill Gertz ?- an old-school, "let's find out what really happened" kind of journalist. Gertz's relevant article, published a year ago in the Washington Times, can be found here.

THE MEDIA TELLS THE COURT: PLAME'S COVER WAS BLOWN IN THE MID-1990s
As the media alleged to the judges (in Footnote 7, page 8, of their brief), Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a spy in Moscow. Of course, the press and its attorneys were smart enough not to argue that such a disclosure would trigger the defense prescribed in Section 422 because it was evidently made by a foreign-intelligence operative, not by a U.S. agency as the statute literally requires.

But neither did they mention the incident idly. For if, as he has famously suggested, President Bush has peered into the soul of Vladimir Putin, what he has no doubt seen is the thriving spirit of the KGB, of which the Russian president was a hardcore agent. The Kremlin still spies on the United States. It remains in the business of compromising U.S. intelligence operations.

Thus, the media's purpose in highlighting this incident is blatant: If Plame was outed to the former Soviet Union a decade ago, there can have been little, if anything, left of actual intelligence value in her "every operation, every relationship, every network" by the time anyone spoke with Novak (or, of course, Corn).


THE CIA OUTS PLAME TO FIDEL CASTRO
Of greater moment to the criminal investigation is the second disclosure urged by the media organizations on the court. They don't place a precise date on this one, but inform the judges that it was "more recent" than the Russian outing but "prior to Novak's publication."

And it is priceless. The press informs the judges that the CIA itself "inadvertently" compromised Plame by not taking appropriate measures to safeguard classified documents that the Agency routed to the Swiss embassy in Havana. In the Washington Times article ?- you remember, the one the press hypes when it reports to the federal court but not when it reports to consumers of its news coverage ?- Gertz elaborates that "[t]he documents were supposed to be sealed from the Cuban government, but [unidentified U.S.] intelligence officials said the Cubans read the classified material and learned the secrets contained in them."

Thus, the same media now stampeding on Rove has told a federal court that, to the contrary, they believe the CIA itself blew Plame's cover before Rove or anyone else in the Bush administration ever spoke to Novak about her. Of course, they don't contend the CIA did it on purpose or with malice. But neither did Rove ?- who, unlike the CIA, appears neither to have known about nor disclosed Plame's classified status. Yet, although the Times and its cohort have a bull's eye on Rove's back, they are breathtakingly silent about an apparent CIA embarrassment ?- one that seems to be just the type of juicy story they routinely covet.


A COMPLETE DEFENSE?
The defense in Section 422 requires that the revelation by the United States have been done "publicly." At least one U.S. official who spoke to Gertz speculated that because the Havana snafu was not "publicized" ?- i.e., because the classified information about Plame was mistakenly communicated to Cuba rather than broadcast to the general public ?- it would not available as a defense to whomever spoke with Novak. But that seems clearly wrong.

First, the theory under which the media have gleefully pursued Rove, among other Bush officials, holds that if a disclosure offense was committed here it was complete at the moment the leak was made to Novak. Whether Novak then proceeded to report the leak to the general public is beside the point ?- the violation supposedly lies in identifying Plame to Novak. (Indeed, it has frequently been observed that Judy Miller of the Times is in contempt for protecting one or more sources even though she never wrote an article about Plame.)

Perhaps more significantly, the whole point of discouraging public disclosure of covert agents is to prevent America's enemies from degrading our national security. It is not, after all, the public we are worried about. Rather, it is the likes of Fidel Castro and his regime who pose a threat to Valerie Plame and her network of U.S. intelligence relationships. The government must still be said to have "publicized" the classified relationship ?- i.e., to have blown the cover of an intelligence agent ?- if it leaves out the middleman by communicating directly with an enemy government rather than indirectly through a media outlet.


LINGERING QUESTIONS
All this raises several readily apparent questions. We know that at the time of the Novak and Corn articles, Plame was not serving as an intelligence agent outside the United States. Instead, she had for years been working, for all to see, at CIA headquarters in Langley. Did her assignment to headquarters have anything to do with her effectiveness as a covert agent having already been nullified by disclosure to the Russians and the Cubans ?- and to whomever else the Russians and Cubans could be expected to tell if they thought it harmful to American interests or advantageous to their own?

If Plame's cover was blown, as Gertz reports, how much did Plame know about that? It's likely that she would have been fully apprised ?- after all, as we have been told repeatedly in recent weeks, the personal security of a covert agent and her family can be a major concern when secrecy is pierced. Assuming she knew, did her husband, Wilson, also know? At the time he was ludicrously comparing the Novak article to the Ames and Philby debacles, did he actually have reason to believe his wife had been compromised years earlier?

And could the possibility that Plame's cover has long been blown explain why the CIA was unconcerned about assigning a one-time covert agent to a job that had her walking in and out of CIA headquarters every day? Could it explain why the Wilsons were sufficiently indiscrete to pose in Vanity Fair, and, indeed, to permit Joseph Wilson to pen a highly public op-ed regarding a sensitive mission to which his wife ?- the covert agent ?- energetically advocated his assignment? Did they fail to take commonsense precautions because they knew there really was nothing left to protect?

We'd probably know the answers to these and other questions by now if the media had given a tenth of the effort spent manufacturing a scandal to reporting professionally on the underlying facts. And if they deigned to share with their readers and viewers all the news that's fit to print ... in a brief to a federal court.

?- Andrew C. McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor, is a senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
LINK
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:18 pm
This is buried in timber's piece about Rove being fired:

timber wrote:
Rove was dismissed from Bush Sr's '92 Texas campaign


Novak, as cited by timber wrote:
Rove was indeed fired by Mosbacher from Victory '92 but continued as a national Bush-for-president operative.


Dismissed? Fired.

So he was definitely dismissed/ fired, but it's not definite whether it was for leaking or not.

Where is the evidence that it wasn't because of a leak, beyond timber and Novak (who is certainly just as biased in all of this as the discounted blogs) saying so?

Why WAS he fired?
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kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:29 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Bush has no integrity because he won't fire a staffer who has not been convircted, charged, or even accused of any crime or wrongdoing?


No, he has no integrity because he specifically changed the wording of his very strongly worded promise so that he could weasel his way out of having to fire that scumbag.

But thanks for answering my question.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:30 pm
Tico,I could spend 8 hours checking the your "facts" and no matter what I came up with you would come back with a whole knew pile of disinformation for me to sift through, nothanks.But I do agree the democrats are calling for Rove to be fired to soon but it's hard to play fair with someone when their always cheating
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 04:32 pm
I'm re-reading the supposedly debunk-dunk Novak paragraphs (if not them, what does debunk this one?), and they really are a pretty weak support of the case.

Quote:
Unfortunately, I did not escape Suskind's article, which includes these sentences: "Sources close to the former president say Rove was fired from the 1992 Bush presidential campaign after he planted a negative story with columnist Robert Novak about dissatisfaction with campaign fund-raising chief and Bush loyalist Robert Mosbacher Jr. It was smoked out, and he was summarily ousted." I was called by no fact-checker, who would have learned of multiple errors.

Suskind has confused former Secretary of Commerce Robert Mosbacher Sr., Bush's 1992 chief fund-raiser, with his son Rob, who headed the Bush campaign in Texas (Victory '92). Criticism of the younger Mosbacher, a frequent unsuccessful candidate in Texas, was not "planted" with me by Rove but was passed to me by a Bush aide whom I interviewed. Rove was indeed fired by Mosbacher from Victory '92 but continued as a national Bush-for-president operative.


The main objection seems to be "planted." That could be semantics. It does not at all discount the possibility that Rove arranged for the information to get to Novak. And especially, since it happened -- the information got to Novak -- and Rove was fired, it certainly looks like Mosbacher at least thought that Rove is the one who planted the negative story... and fired him for it.

In which case "Rove was fired for planting a negative story..." is entirely true -- whether Rove did or didn't do the planting.

Again, I'm open to other evidence of why he was, in fact, fired, but timber's oft-referenced defense has a lot of holes in it.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2005 06:12 pm
Regarding Texas 1992, I am sure that Molly Ivins, a lot of Texas journalists, and most political guns for hire know the answer to Rove's past. Whether or not it is in print anyplace is another question.

But ya gotta love Helen Thomas for cutting to the quick.
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