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Rove was the source of the Plame leak... so it appears

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 12:46 am
JustWonders wrote:


They have a new 'standard'. It's called "making stuff up" LOL.


You've got that same little irritating Coulterish giggle at the end of everyting you say, JW. Coulter uses it as an escape valve when she's called to support her postions and can't. Same for you?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 04:48 am
Chrissee wrote:
Repeat after me

Whoever outed Plame is a traitor. LOL


WRONG!!!!!!!!!
You have no idea what that means,do you?

Treason is the ONLY crime defined in the constitution,so lets see what the Constitution says,shall we.

In article3,section 3,we see this...
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Now,would you like to retract your statement about calling someone a trtaitor?
You should,because you are wrong.
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 05:12 am
I know waht a traitor is and whover compromised our national security by outing Plame is a traitor, tortuerd, apologetic excuses aside.
0 Replies
 
Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 05:16 am
JTT wrote:
JustWonders wrote:


They have a new 'standard'. It's called "making stuff up" LOL.


You've got that same little irritating Coulterish giggle at the end of everyting you say, JW. Coulter uses it as an escape valve when she's called to support her postions and can't. Same for you?


His posts consists mainly of obtuse remarks that add nothing to the conversation and it is uncanny how often he shows up when Timberlandko's nonsense has been totally obliterated. Rolling Eyes LOL
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 05:34 am
I wouldn't be so quick to take on any bets that this sorry mess is going to result in anyone connected to the Whitehouse being indicted or even charged. These whitehouse folks are just too good at covering their tracks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/07/AR2005070702215.html?sub=AR

Quote:
Cooper on Wednesday agreed to testify in the case, reversing his long-standing refusal after saying that he had been released from his pledge of confidentiality just hours before he expected to be sent to jail for contempt of court. In an interview with The Washington Post on Wednesday, Luskin denied that Cooper had received a call from Rove releasing him from his confidentiality pledge. Yesterday, however, Luskin declined to comment on a New York Times report that the release came as a result of negotiations involving Rove's and Cooper's attorneys, nor would he speculate that Cooper was released from his pledge in some other fashion than a direct conversation with Rove. "I'm not going to comment any further," Luskin said.

The admission that Rove had spoken to Cooper appeared at odds with previous White House statements. In retrospect, however, these statements -- which some interpreted as emphatic denials -- were in fact carefully worded.

On Oct. 10, 2003, White House press secretary Scott McClellan was asked whether Rove; Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby; or National Security Council official Elliott Abrams had told any reporter that Plame was a covert CIA agent.

"I spoke with those individuals, as I pointed out, and those individuals assured me they were not involved in this," McClellan said. "And that's where it stands." Reporters pressed McClellan to clarify that statement but he held to the words in his first answer until one reporter asked, "They were not involved in what?" To which he replied, "The leaking of classified information."

That left open the other question that comes into play in this episode, which is the degree to which White House officials were engaged two summers ago in a vigorous effort to discredit Wilson's accusations by discrediting Wilson himself. That in itself may not be a crime, nor would such tactics be unique to the Bush White House, given the accepted rules of political combat employed by participants in both major political parties.

Rove told MSNBC's Chris Matthews that Wilson's wife was "fair game," according to an October 2003 report in Newsweek. At a minimum Fitzgerald could turn up embarrassing information that may yet become public about how the Bush White House operates.

Although the president has encouraged full cooperation with the special prosecutor, administration officials have not appeared eager to explain fully their roles in the Wilson matter. A number of them have signed waivers of confidentiality freeing reporters with whom they have spoken from maintaining confidentiality, although Cooper and others have said they did not regard that waiver as specific enough. In other cases, administration officials have given reporters specific waivers.

But in some of those cases, officials have given the green light for reporters to testify to the grand jury in exchange for a pledge from the reporter not to reveal publicly the identity of the source or the details of the conversations.

Fitzgerald long has made a distinction in his investigation between conversations held before Novak's column was publicly available (it was moved to his newspaper clients on July 11, 2003) and after, on the assumption that once Plame's name was in the public domain, there was no criminal liability for administration officials to discuss it. Which may be one reason it could be difficult to obtain indictments. After almost two years, Fitzgerald finds only one person in jail as a result of his inquiry -- a reporter who never wrote an article about the leak.


[full article at link]
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 05:36 am
Chrissee wrote:
I know waht a traitor is and whover compromised our national security by outing Plame is a traitor, tortuerd, apologetic excuses aside.


Sorry to disagree but if you are going to allege "traitor" in a specific situation you should bear in mind there's a legal definition. I mean if it we were arguing about someone in a football team who was seeking a transfer to another team we might yell "traitor!" at that person but we would hardly be making that refernence in a legal sense but even here in a discussion forum I think it's important not to let the definitions get too rubbery.

Rove might allegedly be a felon but he (by the definition put forward by MM) isn't close to being alleged to be a "traitor" in the proper sense of the word.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 05:48 am
Just adding that there have been less than 40 convictions on federal and only two on state level of treasonery in history.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 06:00 am
"Even though I'm a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors."
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 06:17 am
I didn't say that he committed treason. I said he was a traitor. ASnd I will stand by what I said. The judge in the matter said, according to O'Donnell, that there is sufficient evidence that a VERY SERIOUS CRIME THAT COMPROMISED NATIONAL SECURITY was commited.

Whoever did this is a traitor.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 06:34 am
As said before - in legal terms and qua definitionem: only someone who committs treason is a traitor.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 06:42 am
JTT wrote:
"Even though I'm a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors."

That was George W Bush, in case anyone else didnt know and was curious (Googled it)
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 06:43 am
JTT wrote:
JustWonders wrote:


They have a new 'standard'. It's called "making stuff up" LOL.


You've got that same little irritating Coulterish giggle at the end of everyting you say, JW. Coulter uses it as an escape valve when she's called to support her postions and can't. Same for you?


A little cranky now that Rove's been cleared, aren't ya JTT?

[size=7]<Mission accomplished lol>[/size]
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 06:48 am
Quote:
Save the First Amendment -- from Karl Rove


By Bill Israel
Editor & Publisher

NEW YORK, JULY 6, 2005 ?- In 99.9 percent of cases I know, journalists must not break the bonds of appropriate confidentiality, to protect their ability to report, and to defend the First Amendment. I've testified in court to that end, and would do so again.

But the Valerie Plame-CIA case that threatens jail time for reporters from Time and The New York Times this week is the exception that shatters the rule. In this case, journalists as a community have been played for patsies by the president's chief strategist, Karl Rove, and are enabling him to abuse the First Amendment, by their invoking it.

To understand why this case is exceptional, one must grasp the extent of Rove's political mastery, which became clearer to me by working with him. When we taught "Politics and the Press" together at The University of Texas at Austin seven years ago, Rove showed an amazing disdain for Texas political reporters. At the same time, he actively cultivated national reporters who could help him promote a Bush presidency.

In teaching with him, I learned Rove assumes command over any political enterprise he engages. He insists on absolute discipline from staff: nothing escapes him; no one who works with him moves without his direction. In Texas, though he was called "the prime minister" to Gov. George W. Bush, it might have been "Lord," as in the divine, for when it came to politics and policy, it was Rove who gave, and Rove who took away.

Little has changed since the Bush presidency; all roads still lead to Rove.

Consequently, when former U.S. Ambassador Joseph Wilson challenged President Bush's embrace of the British notion that Saddam Hussein sought to import uranium from Niger to produce nuclear weapons, retaliation by Rove was never in doubt. While it is reporters Matthew Cooper of Time and Judith Miller of The New York Times who now face jail time, the retaliation came through Rove-uber-outlet Robert Novak, who blew the cover of Wilson's wife, CIA operative Valerie Plame.

The problem, as always, in dealing with Rove, is establishing a clear chain of culpability. Rove once described himself as a die-hard Nixonite; he is, like the former president, both student and master of plausible deniability. (This past weekend, in confirming that Rove was indeed a source for Matthew Cooper, Rove's lawyer said his client "never knowingly disclosed classified information.") That is precisely why prosecutor Fitzgerald in this case must document the pattern of Rove's behavior, whether journalists published, or not.

For in this case, Rove, improving on Macchiavelli, has bet that reporters won't rat their relationship with the administration's most important political source. How better for him to operate without constraint, or to camouflage breaking the law, than under the cover of journalists and journalism, protected by the First Amendment?

Karl Rove is in my experience with him the brightest and most affable of companions; perhaps I have been coopted, for I genuinely treasure his friendship. But neither charm nor political power should be permitted to subvert the First Amendment, which is intended to insure that reporters and citizens burrow fully and publicly into government, not insulate its players from felony, or reality.

Reporters with a gut fear of breaching confidential sources must fight like tigers to protect them. But neither reporters Cooper nor Miller, nor their publications, nor anyone in journalism should protect the behavior of Rove (or anyone else) through an undiscerning, blanket use of the First Amendment that weakens its protections by its gross misuse.

?- Bill Israel teaches journalism at the University of Massachusetts (Amherst). He has worked for several leading newpapers.
http://www.mediachannel.org/views/dissector/affalert405.shtml
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 07:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
As said before - in legal terms and qua definitionem: only someone who committs treason is a traitor.


evidently, George W. Bush doesn't know that.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 07:19 am
you're surprised? Razz
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Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 07:53 am
A Prosecutor Who Didn't Back Down
Patrick J. Fitzgerald pushed for the jailing of two reporters who refused to testify. Legal observers disagree on whether he was right.

By Stephen Braun, Times Staff Writer


WASHINGTON ?- Special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald lived up to his billing as a hard-nosed U.S. attorney when he pressed for the jailing of a reporter who refused to testify in his investigation into the leak of a CIA agent's name. But his action just as likely was spurred by the unique fact-finding mission given special prosecutors, legal observers and those who have worked with Fitzgerald in the past said Thursday.

The imprisonment Wednesday of New York Times reporter Judith Miller for failing to testify before a grand jury served to aid Fitzgerald's probe, several lawyers said.

It showed the targets of his inquiry that he meant business. A second reporter, Time magazine's Matthew Cooper, agreed to testify after also being threatened with jail. Cooper said he had been prepared to go to jail but that his source called him at the last minute to release him from his confidentiality pledge.

Even if Fitzgerald's investigation fails to produce any indictments, said Andrew C. McCarthy, a former prosecutor who is a senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Fitzgerald, he said, "has to show he investigated the case in a fair and comprehensive manner." So Fitzgerald's move against Miller and Cooper allows him to show that he took all available measures to get at the truth.

While McCarthy and other lawyers insisted Fitzgerald had done the right thing in trying to compel testimony, not all former special prosecutors agreed.

Lawrence E. Walsh, independent counsel in the Iran-Contra probe of Reagan administration officials between 1986 and 1993, said that he never considered taking action against reporters and could not imagine a justification for it.

"I felt it was up to me and my associates to conduct our own investigation and not force a reporter to do it for us," Walsh, a former federal judge, said in a telephone interview from Oklahoma City. "Maybe there's a need in this particular case, but I don't see it."

Fitzgerald, 44, aggressively prosecuted terrorism cases in New York before being appointed by President Bush in 2001 as U.S. attorney in Chicago.

In his current role as special prosecutor, he pressed for months to compel Miller, Cooper and several other reporters to testify in an effort to learn more about the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame. Her identity as an undercover agent was exposed in July 2003 by conservative syndicated columnist Robert Novak, who cited "two senior administration officials" as his sources.

Plame's husband, former U.S. envoy Joseph C. Wilson IV, charged that her name had been leaked by White House officials in retaliation for his public accusation that the Bush administration had used faulty intelligence in deciding to wage war in Iraq.

In response, the Justice Department opened an investigation into whether White House officials had violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, which prohibits a government officer from knowingly revealing the identity of undercover intelligence agents. In December 2003, then-Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft recused himself from the case and a Justice deputy appointed Fitzgerald as special prosecutor to ensure an independent inquiry.

As Fitzgerald's probe nears a conclusion, said Paul Rosenzweig ?- a legal analyst with the conservative Heritage Foundation who worked on the investigation of President Clinton under then-special prosecutor Kenneth W. Starr ?- there are three apparent options:

Fitzgerald could indict someone for leaking Plame's name in violation of the 1982 identity protection law.

He could indict anyone found to have committed perjury in the course of the investigation.

Or, failing to win indictments, Rosenzweig said, Fitzgerald could issue a detailed report containing his findings and explaining the obstacles that prevented him from filing charges.

"Special prosecutors have to explore every option. It comes with the territory," Rosenzweig said. "They know any decision they make will be challenged. If you take a moderate course, you're accused of pulling your punches. If you go harder, you're called unfair."

But the 93-year-old Walsh ?- who won indictments of 11 Reagan administration aides, including former Defense Secretary Caspar W. Weinberger, national security advisor John M. Poindexter and his aide, Lt. Col. Oliver L. North ?- said that as special prosecutor, he had abided by a cautionary message he was given in 1938 by legendary New York prosecutor Thomas Dewey.

Soon after Walsh was hired as a young assistant, he said, Dewey "called us in on a New Year's Day and laid down one rule: No one was to subpoena a reporter without his permission. It was a point of respect for another profession and his belief that we had to do our job ourselves."

Since 1970, internal Justice Department guidelines have instructed prosecutors to press for reporters' notes and testimony only as a last resort. Those guidelines are not binding, Rosenzweig said, but they have also applied to all special prosecutors.

"The difference between main Justice and a special prosecutor is that regular prosecutors have to consider the timing and strains on resources it takes to go after a reporter and all the appeals and bad publicity that come with it," Rosenzweig said. "But special prosecutors have their own budgets and have more control over their timing.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fitzgerald8jul08,0,7376087.story?track=tothtml


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 09:07 am
Chrissee wrote:
... when Timberlandko's nonsense has been totally obliterated. Rolling Eyes LOL


I'd be interested to see what you think constitutes an example of that.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 09:15 am
Time for Robert Novak to Feel Some Chill
Jay Rosen
Time for Robert Novak to Feel Some Chill

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him. "I will not answer any question about my wife," Wilson told me. -- Robert Novak, "Mission to Niger," July 14, 2003.

I, for one, have had it with Robert Novak. And if all the journalists who are talking today about "chilling effects" and individual conscience mean what they say, they will, as a matter of conscience and pride, start giving Novak himself the big chill.

That means if you're a Washington columnist maybe you don't go on CNN with him-- until he explains. If you're a newspaper editor you consider suspending his column until he explains. If you're Jonathan Klein, president of CNN/US, you take him off the air until he decides to go on the air and explain. If you're John Barron, editor of the Chicago Sun-Times, you suspend your columnist (with pay, I should think); and if Barron won't do it then publisher John Cruickshank should.

If Novak says he can't talk until the case is over, then he shouldn't be allowed to publish or opine on the air until the case is over. He should know the rage some of his colleagues feel. Claiming to be "baffled" by Novak's behavior may have been plausible for a while. With Miller now sitting in jail, and possibly facing criminal charges later, "baffled" is sounding lame.

After the decision yesterday someone asked Bill Keller, top editor of the New York Times, if this was really a whistle-blowing case. Keller answered: "you go to court with the case you've got." I understood what he meant, but that answer was incomplete.

For in certain ways the case that sent Judith Miller to jail is about a classic whistler blower: diplomat Joseph Wilson. Those "two senior administration officials" in Novak's column had a message for him: stick your neck out and we'll stick it to your wife. (They did: her career as an operative is over.) Might that have some chilling effect?

We're not entirely in the dark about how the conversation might have gone. Yesterday Walter Pincus of the Washington Post posted this recollection:

On July 12, 2003, an administration official, who was talking to me confidentially about a matter involving alleged Iraqi nuclear activities, veered off the precise matter we were discussing and told me that the White House had not paid attention to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson's CIA-sponsored February 2002 trip to Niger because it was set up as a boondoggle by his wife, an analyst with the agency working on weapons of mass destruction. I didn't write about that information at that time because I did not believe it true that she had arranged his Niger trip.
Pincus didn't take the "information," Novak did. Why? Did it occur to Novak that this could be retribution against a critic of the White House? Pincus thought the leaker was "practicing damage control by trying to get me to stop writing about Wilson." What did Novak think? The New York Times in an editorial today:

It seemed very possible that someone at the White House had told Mr. Novak about Ms. Plame to undermine Mr. Wilson's credibility and send a chilling signal to other officials who might be inclined to speak out against the administration's Iraq policy. At the time, this page said that if those were indeed the circumstances, the leak had been "an egregious abuse of power." We urged the Justice Department to investigate.
Tell me: how can journalists say with a straight face that they are concerned for future whistle blowers if one of their own, Robert Novak, together with sources made possible an act of retribution against an actual whistle blower?

We do not know enough to say of Novak, "he should be the one in jail." But we do know enough to keep him off the air and the op-ed pages until he makes a fuller statement. (Times editorial: "Like almost everyone, we are baffled by his public posture.") It may be that he betrayed the principles for which his colleague Judy Miller is in jail. The editor who decides to drop Novak's column until such time as he explains himself would be listening to the voice of professional conscience, in my view.

As the judge said Judy Miller can escape her jail cell by finally choosing to talk, so could Novak restore his column and TV appearances by finally talking about his part in the story. Novak is said to have lots of friends in the press. Friends would let him know the time is here.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 10:08 am
Those who claim that Rove has, how do you put it, 'been cleared' is getting ahead of themselves.

Of course, it would be getting ahead of MYSELF to proclaim that he is guilty. So I won't do that yet (I mean, he is guilty of innumerable crimes, just not ones that have been proven in court, of course).

People who are arguing about whether or not a secret operative was outed are missing the larger Conspiracy and Perjury angles. These charges are much, much easier to make stick; and dominoes have a way of falling in a row, dontcha know?

Remember the article I posted eariler in which the Judge's opinion of the Merits of the case had 7 blacked-out pages; apparently the info in those pages was quite compelling to all involved that there had been some sort of crime committed.

Just as our pronouncing Rove guilty does not make him so,

Insipid and snide proclamations (looking at JW, who hasn't made a post of substance in her entire time on A2K) that he is not and that the whole thing will blow over do not make it so, either.

So we'll just have to wait and see; and isn't that the fun part?

Cheers

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 10:22 am
<gasp> But BBB, isn't that "censorship"? What about "Freedom of Speech"?



[/mock concern]
0 Replies
 
 

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