9
   

Why Are Supplies Remaining Out of Stock?

 
 
livinglava
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 10:37 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Not sure what you are arguing - other than trying to fight - I am just posting from a source that is typically knowledgeable.

Why would you think I am trying to fight when I post what I've read in the past and then ask a question about which forests in Mexico are being harvested for toilet paper?

Is it possible to ask for further clarification without it being taken as starting a fight?
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 10:38 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

What a maroon . . . boreal forests means northern forests. Mexico is not the place to look for northern forests.

I know what 'boreal' means. I was just saying that I've read US toilet paper demand is causing deforestation of the boreal forests, so I wondered which forests in Mexico would be used for toilet paper.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 10:39 am
@livinglava,
That would be true....

except higher pricing also lowers demand and increases the supply. If you are willing to pay $4 for a roll of toilet paper, they will make them quickly and they will even pay more to get them to you faster.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 10:41 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Setanta wrote:

What a maroon . . . boreal forests means northern forests. Mexico is not the place to look for northern forests.

I know what 'boreal' means. I was just saying that I've read US toilet paper demand is causing deforestation of the boreal forests, so I wondered which forests in Mexico would be used for toilet paper.


Oooh! Lava scores on Setanta (who clearly erred in parsing Lava's sentences. For the kids at home the score is:

LivingLava: 1
Setanta: 0

Who's the maroon now?
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 10:43 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

That would be true....

except higher pricing also lowers demand and increases the supply. If you are willing to pay $4 for a roll of toilet paper, they will make them quickly and they will even pay more to get them to you faster.

Except one way of "increasing the supply" is for people to buy and hoard and hold out for higher prices.

The higher retailers set the price, the more hoarders will get by reselling what they have hoarded.

If the price stays low, they'll just be stuck with all the TP they bought.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 10:53 am
@livinglava,
This is basic economics Lava. If you know that factories can produce toilet paper easily for pennies a roll, for you to buy and horde in the hopes that prices will go up is ridiculous. If I own a factory, the more you horde the more I make. This process will repeat until you run out of money. Your strategy only works when there is a truly limited commodity.

Toilet paper is easy to make, so any scarcity is artificial. Which is exactly the point, as a society we are artificially suppressing the price, which is why there is scarcity.
Linkat
 
  3  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 10:54 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Linkat wrote:

Not sure what you are arguing - other than trying to fight - I am just posting from a source that is typically knowledgeable.

Why would you think I am trying to fight when I post what I've read in the past and then ask a question about which forests in Mexico are being harvested for toilet paper?

Is it possible to ask for further clarification without it being taken as starting a fight?


Because what you are stating has nothing at all to do with what I had posted.

We are discussing things out of stock - not about any forests and how this might harm them. That is typically what people do on here when they want to start some weird argument.
livinglava
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 11:04 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Linkat wrote:

Not sure what you are arguing - other than trying to fight - I am just posting from a source that is typically knowledgeable.

Why would you think I am trying to fight when I post what I've read in the past and then ask a question about which forests in Mexico are being harvested for toilet paper?

Is it possible to ask for further clarification without it being taken as starting a fight?



Because what you are stating has nothing at all to do with what I had posted.

We are discussing things out of stock - not about any forests and how this might harm them. That is typically what people do on here when they want to start some weird argument.
The fact I mentioned what I read about where toilet paper was made was in the context of deforestation is just clarity in citation.

The point was that you mentioned Mexico, so I mentioned that I had read Canada, and so I was asking if you knew which forests in Mexico were being used to harvest the TP.

The implicit reason for my question, which I didn't state explicitly, is that I'm surprised that TP is made in Mexico when Mexico seems mostly dry and desert to me; but I didn't want to be assumptive, so I asked which forests in Mexico you were referring to, because if I just assumed you were wrong, that would be too hasty on my part, wouldn't it?
livinglava
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 11:13 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This is basic economics Lava. If you know that factories can produce toilet paper easily for pennies a roll, for you to buy and horde in the hopes that prices will go up is ridiculous. If I own a factory, the more you horde the more I make. This process will repeat until you run out of money. Your strategy only works when there is a truly limited commodity.

You're not looking at the realities of this current coronaphobia situation and how that is affecting supply-chains:
1) if toilet paper shelves are empty, that means customers have bought out existing supplies.
2) for suppliers to replenish those supplies, everyone has to be working and not staying home for quarantine, etc.
3) So as long as local people keep buying the TP faster than it can be restocked, there will be scarcity at the local level.
4) If you tried to raise the price of TP across the board to stimulate more supply/production, then more would be produced, but there would be a glut then, unless people were burning toilet paper to use it faster, which is what happened during the New Deal with pork, and of course in the famous grape-burning scene in the Grapes of Wrath.

They call it 'creative destruction' when you intentionally destroy/waste inventories to stimulate more purchases, but they should really just call it greed-driven-waste-for-profit.

Quote:
Toilet paper is easy to make, so any scarcity is artificial. Which is exactly the point, as a society we are artificially suppressing the price, which is why there is scarcity.

No one is stopping you from making toilet paper and selling it at $10/roll. If no one wants to undercut your price, you'll have customers lined up all day.

How exactly do you think that "as a society were are artificially suppressing the price?" How exactly would "we as a society" do that?

If anything, I think the price is kept artificially high because of unnecessary business costs that are incurred by lower-cost retailers that would emerge if they were allowed to do so without expensive fees, etc. preventing them.

Flea markets, farmers' markets, etc. let you pay a little bit of money to rent an open-air spot to sell whatever you have to sell. If your lot rent is $50 for the day, you can afford to sell TP for a lot less than if you have to pay store rent, employees, shareholders, utility bills, etc.

If you had a direct supplier for TP at cost, and you set up a tent on the side of the road, or sold it out of the back of a truck/trailer, you would just have to sell it quickly to make it worth your time.

Let's say you could get at trailer load with a couple thousand packs of TP for $1/pack and you resold them for $2/pack, you'd make a couple thousand dollars, but how long would it take you to sell all those packs of TP if people don't mind just buying it at the grocery store with the rest of their groceries?
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  3  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 11:15 am
@livinglava,
I did not write the article - but if you do not believe the NY Times then so be it.

But I guess I was right in my assumption you were trying to be argumentative - in a passive aggressive manner.

I would suggest though that if you want a discussion on the forests being harvested for toilet paper that you start a new post since this is not the premise of this particular post.
livinglava
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 11:22 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

I did not write the article - but if you do not believe the NY Times then so be it.

If I told you that the NYTimes reported that water was being bottled in the Sahara desert, would you believe it just because I cited the NYTimes?

Quote:
But I guess I was right in my assumption you were trying to be argumentative - in a passive aggressive manner.

It's called discussion. It's not 'argumentative' to discuss posts.

Quote:
I would suggest though that if you want a discussion on the forests being harvested for toilet paper that you start a new post since this is not the premise of this particular post.

Do you find it at all ironic that after all the 'Trump fact-checks' that NYTimes and everyone else posted for years, that you are now accusing me of being argumentative by asking about a fact mentioned?
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 11:25 am
Something else that in a way is "out of stock" so to speak are the human resources required to handle all the calls about unemployment benefits.

I'm only talking about Texas here, but I'm sure it's similar/the same all over.

A couple of days ago, realizing that now gig workers can apply for benefits, I thought, "Sure, why not" The local company I work for texted saying that there would be no assignments in the foreseeable future as business are closed. So no lunch deliveries to them, which is all they do.

I went to the Texas Workforce Commission website and there was just no way to get on.
The next day, I was listening to KUT (NPR) and they said normally among the 4 Texas call centers, they handle about 13,000 calls a day.
Now, the number has increased to 1.5 million.
That's an increase of 115 times!

At the same time, unemployment claims filed have increase 860%, 9 times, going from about 16K people applying 2 weeks ago, to 156K now.

Sure, I get that some people may have extra questions, had never applied before, etc.

But who the hell is clogging up 1.5 million phone lines every day when only 156K are applying?

Are these people who are constantly calling to check the status of their application? Calling for info they could find themselves?

It doesn't add up to me.

I heard in the story the best time to try to apply is between 1am and I don't know, something like 5am.
So I was up at 2am, so decided to try.

This time, (last night) I actually managed to resgister for a user ID. The system was really overwhelmed even at that hour. It kept kicking me off, but eventually I saw that somewhere in the cycling I was now registered.
But trying then to fill out the applicaton?
Forget it.
I guess I'll just try again tonight.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 11:28 am
I find it rather odd that LivingLava is arguing for price controls. But this argument doesn't really interest me. So I will leave it there.

The idea that people are snapping up toilet paper as an investment (with plans to sell it later) seems ridiculous.
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 11:33 am
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

Something else that in a way is "out of stock" so to speak are the human resources required to handle all the calls about unemployment benefits.

I'm only talking about Texas here, but I'm sure it's similar/the same all over.

A couple of days ago, realizing that now gig workers can apply for benefits, I thought, "Sure, why not" The local company I work for texted saying that there would be no assignments in the foreseeable future as business are closed. So no lunch deliveries to them, which is all they do.

I went to the Texas Workforce Commission website and there was just no way to get on.
The next day, I was listening to KUT (NPR) and they said normally among the 4 Texas call centers, they handle about 13,000 calls a day.
Now, the number has increased to 1.5 million.
That's an increase of 115 times!

At the same time, unemployment claims filed have increase 860%, 9 times, going from about 16K people applying 2 weeks ago, to 156K now.

Sure, I get that some people may have extra questions, had never applied before, etc.

But who the hell is clogging up 1.5 million phone lines every day when only 156K are applying?

Are these people who are constantly calling to check the status of their application? Calling for info they could find themselves?

It doesn't add up to me.

I heard in the story the best time to try to apply is between 1am and I don't know, something like 5am.
So I was up at 2am, so decided to try.

This time, (last night) I actually managed to resgister for a user ID. The system was really overwhelmed even at that hour. It kept kicking me off, but eventually I saw that somewhere in the cycling I was now registered.
But trying then to fill out the applicaton?
Forget it.
I guess I'll just try again tonight.

It doesn't really make sense to pay out unemployment for everyone instead of just lowering prices or giving out groceries for free or something like that.

Why have millions of people going through the process of applying for free money and then spending it instead of just having the stores sell them stuff on credit and then send the credit tallies to the government for reimbursement?
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  3  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 03:28 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
...surge pricing would fix the problem?


What it would do, is what it has done with many other items. Items such as bleach, hand sanitizer, alcohol based wipes, and more.
It means those who have enough money (the wealthy and those still receiving a regular salary) will grab up the triple or quadruple priced toilet paper.
Those with little or no savings and suddenly out of work due to the current situation, will be out of luck.

I take it you'd not have an issue with insanely expensive products, such as the dozen eggs, which, one store was selling at $8.00!
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 03:31 pm
@Sturgis,
The alternative is empty shelves. Clorox wipes aren't available at any price.

I suppose we have to choose, but if we are going to artificially restrict the market so there are no price increases, empty shelves is the obvious consequence.

Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 03:36 pm
@maxdancona,
Odd, I located a shelf - some 6 foot wide and with containers anywhere from 1-4 deep.
It was clearly recent in arrival but it was there, and regular price. I did not need or buy since I already have an unopened container here at home.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 03:44 pm
There is an interesting similar problem with Ticket prices for shows.

In any product there is the real market price (i.e. what people are willing to pay), and the ticket price. If the ticket price is the same as the market price, everyone just pays and the market works.

Often the ticket price for a show like Hamilton is significantly lower than the real market price. This is artificial and causes irrational behavior. This is the only time you see hoarding and scalpers... people buying up more tickets than they need because they know they can sell them at a profit. If the ticket price is the market price, then no one can do this.

In a normal market, the sticker price for a dozen eggs is the same as the market price. People just buy the eggs they need from the market efficiently. There is no pressure for people to buy more eggs than they need.

If the market price for eggs goes up (during a crisis for example) and the sticker price also goes up. There is no problem. People will still buy the eggs they need from the market. There will be no reason to buy more, in fact as the price goes up people will generally buy less.

What is happening is artificial. The market price for eggs (and toilet paper, and clorox wipes) is going up. But the sticker prices for these products at supermarkets is being artificially held down. We have made it socially impossible for business to do the natural thing, and this causes problems.

As long as the sticker price is artificially lower than the market price, you are going to face disruption in the market. This leads to empty shelves, hoarding or both.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 03:47 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The alternative is empty shelves. Clorox wipes aren't available at any price.

I suppose we have to choose, but if we are going to artificially restrict the market so there are no price increases, empty shelves is the obvious consequence.

There's another option:

rationing
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2020 03:48 pm
@maxdancona,
Ya know max, if you are buying tickets for a show right now, it may be a scam.

...forgot to check out the price of the wipes.
0 Replies
 
 

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