Reflections on Reason in society.

Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 10:33 pm
yyeh but we can easily develop models,

1. they fit our hypotheses

2.The models are well reasoned

3All the math and vectors work
The model is dead wrong.

The beauty of such an outcome is that we now have some definite places in which to begin searching to find out where the errors exist. When everyone was wrong, we dont have to turn our work into argument laden cluster fucks like most of our a2k discussions.

Reason, (IMHO) often comes at the end of the train.

There is great value in error if we can accept that WE are the ones making them.
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Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 12:44 am
Well, in my humble opinion, faith and reason are two distinctly different things. To reason means to think and adapt, to have faith describes a unshakable belief system. Neither one is a bad thing, many people find comfort in a religion, not everybody of course, but thats alright as well.
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 04:06 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I suspect there was more into your divorce than "sacred" Geometry for supper...was she bossy?

Not at all. She looked at me as if I were just another 'vibration' that the universe generously sent to her. A version of 'string theory' I guess.
Not fair to summarize any human so briefly and in my own way I was as blind as she at the time, but here is the best I can do in a forum post:

My only attempt (years ago) at prose poetry, inspired by my third wife:

I Hate You

I love you as we float effortlessly above this road, your hair gleaming in the lights of oncoming cars, your eyes shining with anticipation of the evening ahead, your gown hiding your body from mere light but not from my eyes. I am happy for your comfort, made possible by this modern carriage, its unseen parts protecting you from heat and damp outside its windows, its body protecting you from harm, its engine working smoothly to take you wherever you would go.

But then I hate you. I hate you for believing it’s your due, for disparaging the sweating men who labored with the asphalt beneath us, and the ones who rose daily to make this comfortable cocoon around you, the ones who cut the wood and built the house you left minutes ago, the African who dug the metal and jewels you so casually adorn yourself with. I hate you for the men who labored to extract the oil and coal and uranium that makes your life possible, the very ones you blame for despoiling the planet. For the plumbers who fitted the pipes that bring you the clean water you drink or flush away without a thought. I hate you for every scientist, waitress, engineer, mechanic, farmer and laborer who worked tirelessly to make your life the carefree existence you so lightly enjoy. I hate you too for the men who labored over your body, wanting only to add to your pleasure while you wonder why it gives you none. And I hate you for the labor of love we pour on your souls, and have it taken for grief.
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bobsal u1553115
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 07:42 am
Like magic!
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 07:48 am
@bobsal u1553115,
He's like the shopkeeper in Mr Benn.

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Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 09:43 am
Reason and reasoning are just a way of having authority be more democratic than position/status.

Without Reason/reasoning, the only basis for authority is position/status.

E.g. if I say 2+2=5 and you say it's 4, then I could say, "I have a degree and you don't" and if Reason was no basis for authority, you would have to accept that I'm right because my credentials say so.

With Reason/reasoning, you can make a case that 2+2=4 by counting 1,2 and then adding 3,4 to it and thus showing how both 1,2 and 3,4 include two counts, thus giving the reason why 2+2=4.

In other words, valid explanations trump truth-claims based on position/credentials/status.

It doesn't matter what your credentials/position/status are, truth is true because of the reasons it is and not because anyone just says so.
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Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 09:48 am
glitterbag wrote:

Well, in my humble opinion, faith and reason are two distinctly different things. To reason means to think and adapt, to have faith describes a unshakable belief system. Neither one is a bad thing, many people find comfort in a religion, not everybody of course, but thats alright as well.

Faith doesn't necessarily require an entire belief system.

Faith can be based on understanding. E.g. if you understand why/how a given fact is correct, it is easier to have faith in it than if you don't.

E.g. if someone just tells you there's a magic number called pi that works to calculate the circumference/area of circles, you might have less faith in it until you either try it out for yourself with various circles OR if you understand how the ratio of every circle's circumference to ratio is going to be the same no matter how big or small the circle.

In short, faith is separate from understanding and reason, but the latter can support the former.

Some things require more complex reasoning to have faith, so some people try to take the shortcut of exercising blind-faith in the absence of understanding, but that doesn't really work because deep inside you can't really have faith unless you have a reason to.
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Fil Albuquerque
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 10:00 am
I can't recall if I've seen or not Olivier, too much binge-watching going on of everything but I will check it out for sure, thank you for the link!
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 10:57 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
You'd remember it, it's a very peculiar movie based on a play. It speaks about how philosophy can be a matter of life or death.
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2020 01:19 pm
It was good. I would love to see it remade as a solo act.
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