Reflections on Reason in society.

Some of us have pieces of the puzzle. Maybe if we could all work together... :-))

That is nice of you Edgar but don't put to much trust on me, it's worth what is worth...I am just as clueless as everyone else. At least I feel I belong to the circus...don't catch the fracking Corona will ya!

Wasup Olivier! I am happy I can work with you and a few more around...its a start right? Let's kill boredom first!

Your OP made me think of that most philosophical of a movie, The Sunset Limited by and with Tommy Lee Jones. You've seen it?

Fil is using the word "Reason" to describe that concept that most religions refer to as "Faith".

It is eternal and essential and you just have to have it. It is the same concept.

Do you have a better argument for the fine-tuning problem or are you that daft about theoretical Physics? You are really amazingly stupid, you are the one making a case for Religion Bubba...when one thinks we have seen the bottom with you, you manage to dig yourself a bigger hole and fit in.

I didn't say anything about theoretical physics on this thread. But, I will.

Reason, as you describe it, gets in the way of Theoretical Physics. Correctness in Physics means that your model makes accurate productions of observation or empirical data.

Reason involves constructing a level of subjective understanding on top of that. Humans have the need to find meaning, and if meaning isn't readily there, we invent meaning.

In Physics, experimental data and measurement is king. If what you measure doesn't match with Reason, the data always wins.

What does "data" mean without Reason idiot?

If Reason doesn't allow you to have a a respectful discussion with someone who disagrees with you, that would be a mark against it.

I question anything that claims to be absolute truth. I am not attacking you personally. If your idea of Reason is not a religion, than there is no reason to react as if I am committing blashemy.

I would say the data has meaning. Reason is an interpretation of the data. Once the interpretation doesn't match the data, the reason has to be discarded. The data remains.

This has happened many times in Physics, starting with Galileo.

Discard words concepts ideas axioms and you don't even have the benefit of pushing numbers around...you are utterly and completely ******* out of your mind pal!
Let me make it easy for you, what you call data depends on reasoning but not on Reason.
Reason is the source of the data as data it is "engraved" in it through spacetime.
Not enough? I can dumb it down yet a step lower, Reason is Ratio, what is the case, moment by moment (on whatever clock of reference) and you need all the ratios to get THE Ratio. That is yet again all possible combinations in de sitter space. A Universal wave function would be a simpler way to describe it also.

You are presenting "Reason" (with a capital 'R') as a source for absolute truth. This is my primary objection to what you are saying.

1. The verb "to reason" is a subjective human process. Two perfectly intelligent people will do the processing of "reasoning" based on the same data and come up with different results. In Physics we chuckle... the interpretations are the science, the data is the science... or we just accept both interpretations as equally correct.

2. You seem to be suggesting that there is a Universal Truth that some righteous human beings have access to.

I don't accept this. Well, call me an agnostic. But an unknowable truth is irrelevant to anything.

Aw ****, I thought you were talk'n about one of my fav mags. I’ve been a subscriber for years. They're kind of bigoted about theology but they get a lot of other stuff right.

Where did human beings come from eh? Adam and Eve, or was it an Angel?
I also made a distinction between events and knowing events and my position was clear on that not even a Demi-God would have access to full knowledge so no one made a case to epistemic certainty. Leave Truth out of it. No further comments Einstein...
Here is Reason for you:

I believe that "reason" is a subjective human process of finding meaning. Reason is based on a mixture of facts and personal needs and biases. Different people can start with the same facts and end up with different understandings.

You seem to be using the word "Reason" to refer to some external Truth that exists outside of any human mind. I don't really understand what you are getting at, but in general I am highly skeptical that such an entity exists.

Reason comes from the Rational that comes from Ratio that means the exact precise relation. It refers primarily to Mathematics, to Geometry, to Mechanics and its ratios, but can be generalized to everything else including how your brain works. Trying to separate Human Beings from Nature is an old dumb idea and guess where it comes from eh?

My 3rd ex wife was very into that. She called it 'Sacred Geometry'.
We tried to reason about it for about a year before divorcing.

I suspect there was more into your divorce than "sacred" Geometry for supper...was she bossy?

The point was and IS, you can't do reasoning without Reason in your own body and brain! How hard is for people to make OBVIOUS associations I wonder???
Word mobility and conceptual elasticity is really a problem for most...I guess I have to live with that.

It does sound like a form of numerology.