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Floating Prisons?

 
 
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:06 am
I'm sure this will garner me some criticism from the 'Everything we do is okay, nothing to look at here' crowd, but really, who cares?

Yahoo News

Quote:
US suspected of keeping secret prisoners on warships: UN official

Tue Jun 28, 3:42 PM ET

VIENNA (AFP) - The UN has learned of "very, very serious" allegations that the United States is secretly detaining terrorism suspects in various locations around the world, notably aboard prison ships, the UN's special rapporteur on terrorism said.

While the accusations were rumours, rapporteur Manfred Nowak said the situation was sufficiently serious to merit an official inquiry.

"There are very, very serious accusations that the United States is maintaining secret camps, notably on ships," the Austrian UN official told AFP, adding that the vessels were believed to be in the Indian Ocean region.

"They are only rumours, but they appear sufficiently well-based to merit an official inquiry," he added.

Last Thursday Nowak and three other UN human rights experts said they were opening an inquiry into the US detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where Washington has been holding more than 500 people without trial, and into other such locations.

The United States has neither refused nor granted requests by Nowak's group to visit Guantanamo.

"We have accepted, upon the request of the State Department and Pentagon, to limit our investigation for now to Guantanamo, but even in accepting this we have not had a positive response" to the request for a visit, Nowak said.

He said that if the "investigation into Guantanamo leads us to other things, we will follow them. We will bring up all these matters to the US government and expect Washington to say officially where these camps are."

The use of prison ships would allow investigators to interrogate people secretly and in international waters out of the reach of US law, British security expert Francis Tusa said.

"This opens the door to very tough interrogations on key prisoners before it even has been revealed that they have been captured," said Tusa, an editor for the British magazine Jane's Intelligence Review.

Nowak said the prison ships would not be "floating Guantanamos" since "they are much smaller, holding less than a dozen detainees."

Tusa said the Americans may also be using their island base of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean as a site for prisoners.

Some 520 people suspected of terrorism are currently being held without trial at Guantanamo and others are in camps the United States has refused to acknowledge, the human rights organization Amnesty International has said.

The United States has said that prisoners considered foreign combattants in its "war on terrorism" are not covered by the Geneva Conventions.


Money line:

The use of prison ships would allow investigators to interrogate people secretly and in international waters out of the reach of US law, British security expert Francis Tusa said.

Now, why would we need to do that?

How much evidence will have to be uncovered before we admit that we are doing wrong, and it isn't isolated incidents; but rather a culture amongst our leaders that the laws of this country do not matter, only power and the acquisition thereof matters?

<ashamed to be American these days>
Cycloptichorn
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:15 am
Re: Floating Prisons?
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Now, why would we need to do that?

How much evidence will have to be uncovered before we admit that we are doing wrong, and it isn't isolated incidents; but rather a culture amongst our leaders that the laws of this country do not matter, only power and the acquisition thereof matters?

<ashamed to be American these days>
Cycloptichorn


How about we wait and see if there is any CREDIBLE evidence of any wrongdoing before we get out the cross and nails and begin crucifying America again?

I can sit here and make unsubstantiated alegations all day about people on this board, but that doesn't make them true.

Prison ships! Rolling Eyes The last time prision ships were used (As in a ship used to hold and house prisoners as opposed to the ships used to transport prisoners from the European Theatre to prison camps in the United States in WW2) were the prison ships of the Civil War.

Why is it that you have to knee jerk and believe any crap thrown at you as long as it shows America in a bad light, but if anything is published about the good America does, your kind dismiss it outright as propoganda.

Can we at least get an iota of proof before we go off on a rant?
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:17 am
How much evidence needs to be uncovered you ask? Hmmm, it would have to be a bit more than the rumors alluded to in this article. But get back to us once the inquiry is complete and let us know the outcome. Oh, I'm sorry, I know better than that....the point is the accusation, not the outcome of any inquiry. I keep forgetting.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:18 am
Re: Floating Prisons?
Fedral wrote:
I can sit here and make unsubstantiated alegations all day about people on this board, but that doesn't make them true.


And . . .

Quote:
Why is it that you have to knee jerk and believe any crap thrown at you as long as it shows America in a bad light, but if anything is published about the good America does, your kind dismiss it outright as propoganda. (emphasis added)


Ah, the irony . . .

And finally . . .

Quote:
Can we at least get an iota of proof before we go off on a rant?


Yes, please, may we have some proof of that?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:23 am
Well, it had been mentioned before in Jane's Intelligence Review - as rumour - a couple of times.

If those really would be true - which I doubt]: no-one can be sooooo stupid - I suppose we're going to hear about luxury cruise ships and pampered service that American soldiers in Iraq only wish they had. Or somehow it's going to be the fault of somebody else.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:26 am
Nice to see ya CR
Quote:
How much evidence needs to be uncovered you ask? Hmmm, it would have to be a bit more than the rumors alluded to in this article. But get back to us once the inquiry is complete and let us know the outcome. Oh, I'm sorry, I know better than that....the point is the accusation, not the outcome of any inquiry. I keep forgetting.


What, we're not allowed to discuss things that haven't been proven true?

The point isn't the accusation. How can you think that any accusation that I made on some stupid internet discussion board would make an Iota of difference in the long run? The point is to foster discussion of a news article that I read and was wondering if anyone else had read.

My question 'how much more evidence...' is in response to the fact that we have admitted to torture in Gitmo as well as Abu Ghraib and Afghanistan, that we dodge the INRC, that our leaders mislead us about the reasons for war in the first place, that we don't seem to be able to take ANY higher-level responsibility for ANYTHING that goes wrong or has gone wrong.

I think that last part is what really gets me. None of the guys in the Admin. has the balls to say that since they were on watch, they take responsibility for what has happened. The only one I even sort of respect for doing so (attempting to do so) is Rummy who reportedly tried to resign twice. No, instead we blame the troops for what has happened. That really sickens me....

Fed, I'm going to continue to discuss whatever topics I damn well please, and that's the end of that little side-bar in this thread, thank you very much. If ya don't like it, move to a country where you can better control what people say and think and where Liberty is not as prevalent as it is here in the US. Otherwise, keep your trap shut about criticisms of me and my choice of topic.

Got it?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:27 am
The important line is this:

Quote:
Nowak said the prison ships would not be "floating Guantanamos" since "they are much smaller, holding less than a dozen detainees."


We aren't talking about ships dedicated to the housing and interrogation of Prisoners, just that it goes on.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:35 am
And... it should be noted the Christ metaphor ("get out the cross and nails and crucify America") is quite inappropriate in this context.

Jesus was not a member of the sole world power of His day. Quite the contrary, he was a prisoner of the sole world power. He was captured in an effort by the strongest military power as part of their effort to root out what we would today call "terrorists".

Jesus was put into a prison with little or no rights, where he was interrogated, mocked for being part of a despised Middle Eastern religion that was known to use violence against an occupying force, beaten and...

Maybe this is an appropriate metaphor after all...
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 11:37 am
How's it going Cy? Hope all is well with you. I was only responding to the question of how much evidence would be needed that you posed. I know you were just throwing the article out there for discussion. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I gotta remember to use those little funny faces when I'm throwing a light-hearted jab at people. Yes, one that may, in my mind, have a bit of truth to it, but light-hearted all the same.

But, to get back to the article, I think someone in the Admin would be nuts to think they could get away with this after all the scrutiny currently going on. Of course I realize some of my fellow A2K'ers do think many in the admin are a bit nuts, so I guess it is plausible from your view. Smile (See, nice use of the funny face if I must say so myself)
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 10:44 pm
I heard this on the radio this morning (my time). My first thought was "why would they bother?" If prisoners can be taken to Egypt and tortured why stick them on a ship? I'm pretty sceptical about this one.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2005 07:11 am
I can think of three reasons why floating prisons might be useful...

1) They are under US military control. You don't need to deal with the politicis of a third country.
2) They are easier to keep secret. The prisoners disappear and no one outside the US military know where they are.
3) The fact they are are international waters provides legal cover to do things that would not be allowed in other places.
0 Replies
 
 

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