1
   

A response I wrote to an article on Child Marriage;

 
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 01:02 pm
The troubling part of this narrative is the idea that indigenous women need White people to save them from indigenous men. This plays into colonial stereotypes.

Indigenous men who defend their cultural practices against Westernization are portrayed as brutal savages. Indigenous women who defend their native culture are portrayed as ignorant and naive.

I am not saying that issues like circumcision arent difficult. I am saying that White people have military and economic power and the luxury of knowing their point of view will be heard. This doesn't mean they are morally superior.

0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 04:10 pm
@maxdancona,
What value is there in restricting women when it comes to what they are allowed to do and wear?
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 04:13 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
The social as a whole seems to had decided women at whatever age need to be protected from their own poor judgment.

Give me an example of this poor judgement you are referring to.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 04:15 pm
@Glennn,
You will have to ask the indigenous women who value their traditional cultures.

Dont make the mistake of only listening to women who have been Westernized. Thee are plenty of women who when given the choice.reject Western values in favor of their traditional culture. I cant speak for them any more than you can. I do think they should be given a voice.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 04:25 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Thee are plenty of women who when given the choice.reject Western values in.favor of their traditional culture.

Yeah, that's the nature of culture. When you're brought up with restrictions on what you can do, say, and wear, you tend to believe that nothing outside that box is good.

But culture is not an answer to the question of why on earth you would want to restrict women--or anyone--when it comes to their behavior, their speech, and their dress.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 04:43 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
The social as a whole seems to had decided women at whatever age need to be protected from their own poor judgment.

Give me an example of this poor judgement you are referring to.


LOL I am not willing to override women judgments however it seem this thread is full of men who in the name of protecting women from other males are more then willing to imposed their judgments on women.

Example of this is the mcdonald board who fired their CEO for the misdeed of having a willing relationship with a female coworker.

One wonder if it had been a gay relationship if the board would have feel the need to override the ceo male partner judgment in having a relationship.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 05:06 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
it seem this thread is full of men who in the name of protecting women from other males are more then willing to imposed their judgments on women.

Oh I don't know about that. A few of us have no problem expressing our opinion concerning matching girls up with grown men.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 05:23 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
Thee are plenty of women who when given the choice.reject Western values in.favor of their traditional culture.

Yeah, that's the nature of culture. When you're brought up with restrictions on what you can do, say, and wear, you tend to believe that nothing outside that box is good.


You are in the.same boat as indigenous women... unless you are saying that indigenous women arw susceptible to influence in a way that you are not. You and I have been brought up in a culture that has given us a set of prejudices.

It is a common stereotype of indigenous women that they are naive and easily manipulated.


Quote:

But culture is not an answer to the question of why on earth you would want to restrict women--or anyone--when it comes to their behavior, their speech, and their dress.


Indigenous women who defend their cultures for tgwmselves.

I have no right to speak for them. Neither do you.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 05:51 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I have no right to speak for them. Neither do you.

Your theory is that no one knows what is right and wrong because we've all been tainted by culture. You believe that it is because of your culture that you cannot know whether or not grown men should be given child brides, or whether or not it is the correct to cut off parts of peoples' sex organs. I do not share that belief.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 05:51 pm
@Glennn,
The question is whether you can accept indigenous women (and men) as your equals ... even when they reject Western values in favor of their traditional cultural values.

It is easy to write off as ignorant and naive anyone who rejects Western values. But Americans are also a product of our own cuture. There is no objective reason to believe that our culture is superior.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 05:58 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It is easy to write off as ignorant and naive anyone who rejects Western values.

It is not a matter of Western values that leads one to be appalled by the cutting off of parts of peoples' sex organs. That is a matter of human values.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 06:36 pm
@Glennn,
Of course it is a matter of cultural values. You have one set of values. An indigenous community has another set of cultural values. There is no reason that you are right and they are wrong no matter how strongly you feel.

I will admit that as a Western man, FGM is the most difficult example to accept. My belief in multiculturalism and anti-colonialism bring me here....and sure, I accept the uncomfortable consequence of my position

I believe the position that you are in.. Casting White people as the saviors of indigenous women, is at least as difficult. The idea that the brutality of colonialism was at all beneficial is an untenable (and racist) position.

I believe strongly that indigenous cultures were fine on there own without White people to "civilize" them.

I disagree with you about indigenous marriage practices. I agree with you that relationships between adults and children are harmful in a Western cultural context.

In other cultures the Western ideas of adulthood, childhood and marriage simply don't apply. It seems likely that if you lived in these cultures and had a chance to see that these marriages provided stability, family and met the needs of the community you might change your mind.

Even if you are right on these issues in some absolute universal sense, I still think the legacy of White Supremacy is too damaging to justify White people interfering in indigenous cultures.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 07:14 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
it seem this thread is full of men who in the name of protecting women from other males are more then willing to imposed their judgments on women.

Oh I don't know about that. A few of us have no problem expressing our opinion concerning matching girls up with grown men.


LOL you mean late teens girls and mid 20s males????

How dare such women wish to have relationships with men at the same level of maturity as them instead of teenage males who will take five to ten years to catch up with the mid teen women maturity level.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 07:17 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I believe the position that you are in.. Casting White people as the saviors of indigenous women, is at least as difficult.

I do not cast white people as the saviors of indigenous women. I simply recognize the pointless barbarity of cutting off parts of peoples' sex organs. If you believe that there is a point to such a practice, please share.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 07:24 pm
@Glennn,
I had part of my sex organ cut off. It is a cultural practice, for many people it has religious importance. I know you don't think that is the same, but the clear line you are trying to draw isn't that clear.

From what I understand, the custom of female circumcision is passed from mother to daughter. Mothers who were themselves circumcised push for their children to have the same practice. I don't think the Western narrative that his is pushed by males on females actually matches reality... not that it is any less disturbing.

I you really want to understand the practice, you should talk respectfully to the women who choose this for their daughters. You don't ever have to accept the practice or to stop being shocked and disgusted by it. But hopefully you can accept that these women are human beings who deserve a voice.

Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 08:09 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
How dare such women wish to have relationships with men at the same level of maturity as them instead of teenage males who will take five to ten years to catch up with the mid teen women maturity level.

You're still hanging on to the idea that females don't need the time it takes to have the necessary experiences to develop intellectually and emotionally. You must think it all happens magically for females. That's a self-serving belief. Do your really believe that a teenage girl is mature in the sense that she is ready to settle down and commit herself to raising a family? Here is a study that explains why you're wrong about that. It has to do with identity development:
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Why are marriages entered before the early twenties so much less stable than those entered later? First, developmental scientists have amassed evidence that individuals do not reach psychosocial maturity until their early twenties. Psychologist Jeffrey Arnett has identified the period from age eighteen to twenty-five as what is now widely acknowledged to be a distinct developmental period in the modern life course, and which he has termed “emerging adulthood.”274

Developmental neuroscientists have begun to explain the neurological bases for the coexistence of adolescent cognitive maturity and socio-emotional immaturity. They have begun developing a neurologically based model primarily oriented around the development in two neural systems of the brain: that associated with cognitive control, and that associated with socio-emotional maturity. The core insight of this dual-systems model is that these two neural systems develop along different timelines.275 This temporal disjunction has the potential to explain adolescents’ impulsivity and poor decision-making in some contexts despite their improved cognitive ability, as well as other aspects of adolescent psychology and behavior.276

As discussed above, adolescents’ basic cognitive abilities are mature by age sixteen, giving them the capacity to process information and make rational decisions. But a heightened sensitivity to rewards that increases and peaks around mid-adolescence inclines them towards risk taking, sensation seeking, and impulsivity. These inclinations may dominate or overwhelm their cognitive processes and shape their behaviors, especially in situations triggering heightened emotion or pressure.277 Adolescents’ susceptibility to the confounding influence of heightened reward salience on their decision making begins to decline after mid-adolescence, however, while their abilities to exercise cognitive control increase, ultimately reaching mature levels in their twenties.278

Most adolescents and emerging adults actively engage in a period of identity exploration most evident in the contexts of work, worldviews, and intimate relationships.279 First theorized by Erik Erikson, identity formation is a gradual process that occurs most intensely during adolescence.280 During this period, individuals’ beliefs, commitments and relationships tend to be in flux as they “actively explor[e] possibilities for self-definition, which may require questioning or rejecting previously held beliefs.”281 In the late 1960s, Erikson observed that the period of identity formation was prolonged in industrialized societies, and psychologists now believe that most identity development continues through late adolescence and into the twenties.282

Following a period of exploration, individuals ideally reach identity achievement, a more stable (though not unchanging) identity status whereby they commit to personal, occupational, and ideological choices.283 Some studies have found that both females and emerging adults who do not attend college progress towards identity achievement somewhat faster than others.284 Even for noncollege adolescents and emerging adults and for females, however, the majority have not reached identity achievement by age twenty-one, and researchers have only recently begun conducting studies of identity achievement beyond this age
.285
___________________________________________________________________________________________

For some reason, you actually believe that there is no difference between a mid-teen girl and a woman in her mid-twenties. Why don't you tell me how you believe a man in his mid-twenties would do with a woman in her mid-twenties, or do you think that that would not be compatable?
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 08:15 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
you should talk respectfully to the women who choose this for their daughters.

A woman who chooses to have some, or all, of her sex organ cut off is free to choose that for herself. But taking the choice away from a child to not have that done is called forced mutilation.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2019 08:27 pm
@BillRM,
Here is a link to that study: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/285e/6eea1ac27b38f400cc9b444bf1040c9d1479.pdf
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2019 08:02 am
@Glennn,
Reads well, I must say.

Quote:
The irony apparently lost on U.S. lawmakers who supported the bill is that child marriage is not limited to developing countries but is also a domestic practice; more than one in ten of all U.S. women surveyed between 2001 and 2002 had married before age eighteen, with an estimated 9.4 million having married at age sixteen or younger. In 2010, more than 500,000 U.S. teens were married, divorced, separated, or widowed.


Should some civilized nation invade the US to make it stop? That could also stop male circumcision...
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2019 08:43 am
@Olivier5,
When did I say that nations should be invaded? You like making shyt up, don't you?
 

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