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I'm scared to die.. is that bad?

 
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 03:40 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Chumuly's question misses the point altogether.
Jeepers at least get my name right! My question was meant as a bit of fun as to how it's impossible to define harm in the context given!
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 07:21 pm
Re: I'm scared to die.. is that bad?
neologist wrote:
roverroad wrote:
It's the bible that puts the fear of death into people. The uncertainty that if you didn't make the rite choices you'll become Satans personal slave for eternity. I'd be afraid to die too if I believed that stuff.
Not true. It is the clergy and their misrepresentation of the bible that have promoted the fear of death. Read with discernment.


Indeed, I think to the contrary, that religions offers a way of avoiding having to face the complete oblivion that death clearly is.

Even an eternity of ghostly haunting of graveyards seems positively optimistic in the face of what death actually means.

I'm scared of death. Even more so now that I have 1.96 children.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 07:49 pm
Sorry, Chumly. It really sounded like a serious challenge for evidence.

It IS possible that fear of death preceded the advent of Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions). If you ask for my GUESS, I would conjecture that human fear of oblivion is fairly basic. Out of that we develop defensive notions of after-lives, many of them less than ideal but at least better than oblivion.
It is my guess that Christianity came along and informed the people that they need not fear oblivion, that their fear SHOULD be of Hell, but that, although there is no escape from oblivion in the extra Christian model, there IS escape from Hell.
As I see it "oblivion" is a meaningless notion since--to paraphrase my earlier thesis--once the individual has died there is no individual to be in a state of oblivion. No subject, no predicate.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 08:17 pm
JLNobody wrote:

As I see it "oblivion" is a meaningless notion since--to paraphrase my earlier thesis--once the individual has died there is no individual to be in a state of oblivion. No subject, no predicate.


Yet right now, you are an existing individual whose future is oblivion, at a time and place you are not yet aware of. If you live entirely in "now" then you don't really have a problem, but that's pretty rare.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 09:22 pm
That's right, Eori, there really is no problem. Before birth there was no "me"; after dying, there is no "me". In fact there is no "me" now, only the illusion of it. There is only experience and no-"me" who is the subject of experience. Indeed the sense of "me" is itself only an experience. All the so-called objects of my experience are my true self. Subject (the sensation of me) and object (the content of experience) are one. As the Hindus put it: "Tat tvam asi", That are thou.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 02:20 am
Raul-7 wrote:
Wilso wrote:
It requires belief in a soul that I don't have. We're just an organism of chemical reactions and electrical impulses. We arrive here for a while, do our thing, and then we're gone. The soul is merely an invention of the mind to avoid the abyss.


Then what about the scientific evidence that proves the World of the paranormal exist via voice recordings and electrical impulses?


The various sceptics associations have been running competitions for years to anyone who can provide such proof. As yet, nobody ever has.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 04:38 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Sorry, Chumly. It really sounded like a serious challenge for evidence.

It IS possible that fear of death preceded the advent of Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions). If you ask for my GUESS, I would conjecture that human fear of oblivion is fairly basic. Out of that we develop defensive notions of after-lives, many of them less than ideal but at least better than oblivion.
It is my guess that Christianity came along and informed the people that they need not fear oblivion, that their fear SHOULD be of Hell, but that, although there is no escape from oblivion in the extra Christian model, there IS escape from Hell.
As I see it "oblivion" is a meaningless notion since--to paraphrase my earlier thesis--once the individual has died there is no individual to be in a state of oblivion. No subject, no predicate.
You've triggered the first stage of a booby trap and now have the option of cutting one of two wires to disable the bomb.

One of the wires will detonate the bomb and the other wire will disable the bomb.

There is no way you can know in time which wire to cut as you have only 5 seconds left on the bomb's timer at which point it will explode and kill you by default.

If you cut the wrong wire and the bomb explodes you will die and thus have no further worries about the bomb, if you cut the right wire and the bomb does not explode you will have no further worries about the bomb.

I both cases although the results are different, the net is the cessation of worrying about the bomb, right?

Within the context of this limited scenario is there a logical rationale to worry about which wire to cut?

Within the context of this thread (in as much as it can be applied to this thread) is there a logical rationale to worry about which wire to cut?
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sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 04:52 pm
Chumly, some day the time will come when you are truly about to die because we all die. Just think, you are way ahead of the game, look at all the good advice you have to look over. Save it, don't lose it, you'll need it.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 04:59 pm
sunlover wrote:
Chumly, some day the time will come when you are truly about to die because we all die. Just think, you are way ahead of the game, look at all the good advice you have to look over. Save it, don't lose it, you'll need it.
If the net result is inevitable irrelative of anyone's views here and otherwise, what difference does it make what views I hold in this infinitesimally short interim of existence between the infinite prior and the infinite post?

For that matter, from that perspective, what difference does it make what views anyone holds, or what anyone does or does not do?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 05:42 pm
Chumly, this "infinitesimally short interim of existence between the infinite prior and the infinite post" [by the way, well put] seems devestatingly brief from that perspective. But from another (absolutely subjective) perspective my "interim" is nothing less than my experienced eternity--nothing before it and nothing after it. From your (objective) perspective I can see how all views and actions can seem to be futile, but from my perspective my views and actions are of infinite importance.

[also by the way, don't you mean irrespective or regardless, rather than "irrelative"--at least that word's not in my lexicon]
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 05:51 pm
As humor: I do hope your "experienced eternity" is not due to spousal nagging!

Another poster (IIRC Joe From Chicago) called me out on "irrelative" as well, saying that word does not even exist!

irrelative
not pertinent; irrelevant.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irrelative

Question: how can this interim you speak of be nothing less than your "experienced eternity" when I can measure this "experienced eternity" with a timepiece? The eternity I speak of has no such measurability.

Thus is it not logical to assess the eternity as defined by the "infinite prior and the infinite post" as representing a greater reality than your "experienced eternity"?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 08:02 pm
A cop once stopped me for some violation. My wife said to him "You should have seen what he did a mile back." He let me go, saying that my backseat driver was punishment enough.


Chumly, I'm not sure I understand you, but in order for you to understand my point you simply have to take an epistemologically RELATIVISTIC approach. From the perspective of life-as-experience, even the "objective" timepiece with its "objective" measurments have reality only as experiences. If all human minds cease to exist so would they--in a sense. This has to do with insight, not logic.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 08:05 pm
Chumly, thanks for the new word. But I don't think I have the courage to use it yet.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 11:05 pm
Words are fun and when all is said and done what else is there on A2K?

I think I understand how these things can be subjective from some standpoint, but and still, it would be entertaining to hear a coroner claim the body is dead only because it's perceived to be, and not because it actually is, the reason being that there can be no actuality.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 10:30 am
Actually (no pun intended), there is ONLY actuality, and it is BOTH what you call objective (facticity) and what I call subjective (or experience). That's why I was referring to "perspectives". If the coroner was not having the experience of a cadaver on his table there would be no dead body FOR HIM. There COULD be for others, but then that would be THEIR subjective experience (and so far as we share experience or its meanings culturally, most experience is INTER-subjective).

As far as I'm concerned there is only SUBJECTIVITY, and that's an OBJECTIVE fact. :wink:
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 11:17 am
In two words, it "subjective reality."
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 01:38 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Actually (no pun intended), there is ONLY actuality, and it is BOTH what you call objective (facticity) and what I call subjective (or experience). That's why I was referring to "perspectives". If the coroner was not having the experience of a cadaver on his table there would be no dead body FOR HIM. There COULD be for others, but then that would be THEIR subjective experience (and so far as we share experience or its meanings culturally, most experience is INTER-subjective).

As far as I'm concerned there is only SUBJECTIVITY, and that's an OBJECTIVE fact. :wink:
What about irrefutable forensic evidence leading to the confirmation of the existence of the cadaver by the coroner, without the confirmed presence of the cadaver as witnessed directly by the coroner?

I mean, nobody lives forever so isn't it safe to say that certain scenarios are confirmed without the need for direct experience? (Keeping in the vein of the fear of death topic, and taking it to a generality from a specific)
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 11:23 pm
Anyone seen the movie Tuesdays with Morrie (1999)?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00005UJAM/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/103-6033413-2543820?ie=UTF8&n=130&s=dvd
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 12:02 pm
I just posted this statement on the new thread, "Should I fear death?". I think it applies here as well:

I believe that none of us will ever know (our) death.

All this after-life stuff amounts to fantasy (some imposed on us to control us and some self-imposed to deal with our fear of death). One minute, or less, after my demise I will never have existed; I'll be just as I was before my parents conceived me.

Notice the tyranny of grammar here: I say that "I" will be as "I" was before conception. There was no "I" to exist or not exist before-life--and the same applies to after-life.

We must free ourselves from this cognitive-linguistic trap.
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Brother Mark
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Mar, 2007 08:58 am
Franklyn Delano Roosevelt once said "The only thing to fear is fear itself." It's only the fear of death, not death itself that we must deal with. Death is just as natural as birth. Some people believe in reincarnation. John Lennon once said that he was not afraid to die because it would be just be like getting out of one car and into another. It's logical simply because we are alive now, so that's what's most likely to happen again. The God Jesus thing, and seeing dead family members, however, is a bunch of B.S.; that's religion and all religion is just fantasy. Let nature take its course. Sometimes even very young children die. I feel, if they can do it ok, then so can I.
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