Bible interpretations

neologist wrote:

When Solomon says he was ". . .produced at the beginning. . .", he can't be talking about himself. He is quoting words inspired of Jesus.

He is quoting words inspired by G-d. Smile

And he referring to the Torah, created before the G-d created the Universe. :wink:

Jus' being ecumenical here.

(The following is the complicated explanation which is incomplete, but gives over a flavor what this quote from Proverbs means to a religious Jew -
Chazal (our Sages) say in Midrash Hagadol Bereishis:
Rabbi Phineas and Rav on the authority of Rabbi Joshua b. Rabbi Levi, quoting Rabbi Levi, said: A builder requires six materials, viz.: water, earth, wood, stones, laths and iron. Even the rich, who does not use laths, still requires a measuring rod, as we read, "And in the man's hand there was a measuring-rod (Yechezkel 40:5).
Therefore He first created six pre-requisites, as it says, "Hashem made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old; I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was
(Mishlei 8:22-23) (which is Proverbs 8:22-23)
Hence the Torah says Bereishis, which reads bara shees, He created six.
Each of these phrases is understood to be referring to a preliminary act of creation, whereby the primal raw materials were created.
And all of these are contained in the Torah.)

0 Replies

This 8th chapter of Proverbs identifies the speaker as Wisdom.

1 Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?

12 "I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities.

14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I?-understanding; I have mightiness.

----------

Since the speaker was created or brought forth at the beginning it cannot be referring to God, but to something that is created by the Creator (God).

22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

------------

Since the speaker (Wisdom ) is said to be observing the Creator (Jehovah) doing the work of Creation, it is clear that Wisdom is not the Creator Himself.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day,

--------------

The New Testament clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God and the Creator, not as an observer of someone else doing the work of Creation, hence He Himself was not created or brought forth at the beginning.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Hebrews 1: 10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

Rev 22: 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (compare with Is 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ?'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.)

0 Replies

real life wrote:

This 8th chapter of Proverbs identifies the speaker as Wisdom.

1 Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?

12 "I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities.

14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I?-understanding; I have mightiness.

----------

Since the speaker was created or brought forth at the beginning it cannot be referring to God, but to something that is created by the Creator (God).

22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

------------

Since the speaker (Wisdom ) is said to be observing the Creator (Jehovah) doing the work of Creation, it is clear that Wisdom is not the Creator Himself.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day,

--------------

The New Testament clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God and the Creator, not as an observer of someone else doing the work of Creation, hence He Himself was not created or brought forth at the beginning.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Hebrews 1: 10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

Rev 22: 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (compare with Is 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ?'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.)

A hunner' percent, real. That does indeed sound like the Christian interpretation.
It is, however, a different interpretation than the Jew you call Solomon might have given. :wink:

0 Replies

John Creasy wrote:

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:
John you seem sincere,I advise you to read the articles on this site the most serious and the most sincere of all:
http://www.shareintl.org/

That's some pretty deep stuff. So is all that based on what Benjamin has said? How do they have all this information? I've never heard about this before but I do kinda believe that all religions are guided by the same thing.

Study and follow your intuition...Go slowly and reach safely!
If anything talks to you you, you feel it as a possibility, is veryfied by you own experience then the affirmations are true,if not reject it...
Benjamin is a honest, humble man,very advanced spiritually. :wink:

0 Replies

Moishe3rd wrote:

real life wrote:
This 8th chapter of Proverbs identifies the speaker as Wisdom.

1 Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?

12 "I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities.

14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I?-understanding; I have mightiness.

----------

Since the speaker was created or brought forth at the beginning it cannot be referring to God, but to something that is created by the Creator (God).

22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

------------

Since the speaker (Wisdom ) is said to be observing the Creator (Jehovah) doing the work of Creation, it is clear that Wisdom is not the Creator Himself.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day,

--------------

The New Testament clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God and the Creator, not as an observer of someone else doing the work of Creation, hence He Himself was not created or brought forth at the beginning.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Hebrews 1: 10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

Rev 22: 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (compare with Is 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ?'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.)

A hunner' percent, real. That does indeed sound like the Christian interpretation.
It is, however, a different interpretation than the Jew you call Solomon might have given. :wink:

I'm not sure about that. I don't think Solomon intended the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 to represent the Creator, do you?

0 Replies

real life wrote:

This 8th chapter of Proverbs identifies the speaker as Wisdom.

1 Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?

12 "I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities.

14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I?-understanding; I have mightiness.

----------

Since the speaker was created or brought forth at the beginning it cannot be referring to God, but to something that is created by the Creator (God).

22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

------------

Since the speaker (Wisdom ) is said to be observing the Creator (Jehovah) doing the work of Creation, it is clear that Wisdom is not the Creator Himself.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day,

--------------

The New Testament clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God and the Creator, not as an observer of someone else doing the work of Creation, hence He Himself was not created or brought forth at the beginning.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Hebrews 1: 10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

Rev 22: 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (compare with Is 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ?'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.)

Really, real; You seem to have misplaced the statement in Colossians chapter 1 vs. 15-17: ". 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist . . ." In this case, Paul is clearly referring to Jesus as one who was created.

0 Replies

real life wrote:

Moishe3rd wrote:
real life wrote:
This 8th chapter of Proverbs identifies the speaker as Wisdom.

1 Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?

12 "I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities.

14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I?-understanding; I have mightiness.

----------

Since the speaker was created or brought forth at the beginning it cannot be referring to God, but to something that is created by the Creator (God).

22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

------------

Since the speaker (Wisdom ) is said to be observing the Creator (Jehovah) doing the work of Creation, it is clear that Wisdom is not the Creator Himself.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day,

--------------

The New Testament clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God and the Creator, not as an observer of someone else doing the work of Creation, hence He Himself was not created or brought forth at the beginning.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Hebrews 1: 10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

Rev 22: 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (compare with Is 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ?'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.)

A hunner' percent, real. That does indeed sound like the Christian interpretation.
It is, however, a different interpretation than the Jew you call Solomon might have given. :wink:

I'm not sure about that. I don't think Solomon intended the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 to represent the Creator, do you?

No, he intends it to mean Torah. Which, in one sense, you could call the personification of Wisdom...

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

real life wrote:
This 8th chapter of Proverbs identifies the speaker as Wisdom.

1 Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?

12 "I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities.

14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I?-understanding; I have mightiness.

----------

Since the speaker was created or brought forth at the beginning it cannot be referring to God, but to something that is created by the Creator (God).

22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.

------------

Since the speaker (Wisdom ) is said to be observing the Creator (Jehovah) doing the work of Creation, it is clear that Wisdom is not the Creator Himself.

27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day,

--------------

The New Testament clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God and the Creator, not as an observer of someone else doing the work of Creation, hence He Himself was not created or brought forth at the beginning.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Hebrews 1: 10 And: "You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out."

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus

Rev 22: 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (compare with Is 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ?'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.)
Really, real; You seem to have misplaced the statement in Colossians chapter 1 vs. 15-17: ". 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist . . ." In this case, Paul is clearly referring to Jesus as one who was created.

Nope didn't misplace the passage at all. The Colossians passage certainly identifies Jesus as Creator, I think you would agree with that.

The words is brackets, such as [other] are not present in the original text and were placed by the translators. In most cases in the NWT, they make no appreciable difference in meaning. However in this case they clearly do make the passage say something quite different, and it is important to realize that the bracketed insertions in the text are not supported by the original documents.

All passages in the N.T. must harmonize, and the passage in John states that not even one thing came into existence without Christ creating it.

The passage in Hebrews is a quotation from the Old Testament (Psalm 102) where the Creator is clearly identified as God. The writer to the Hebrews states that this was said in reference to the Son (Heb 1:8).

0 Replies

Who did Jesus obey?

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

Who did Jesus obey?

That's a hard one to understand, isn't it? Many questions about Jesus seem difficult. That is because they are difficult and some questions defy an easy answer. Some you have posted previously , like who did Jesus pray to? etc. are like it also.

It seems beyond our comprehension how Jesus could be God and Man both doesn't it? To us , it seems somewhat awkward, and answers to questions like "who did Jesus obey?" and "who did Jesus pray to?" seem to yield an awkward answers when we say "God". But how is it that He prayed to Himself? the logical human mind would ask.

Well, of course, you may realize that God is omnipresent and so for Him to be both in Christ, and in Heaven, really is not that hard to grasp in it's most elementary stages.

Still no answer may seem quite fully satisfactory and we may have to admit that we do not understand everything about God. And that is an uncomfortable admission, because we want to be in control and we want to think that we can have every answer.

But when it comes down to it, we must recognize that what the Bible teaches, not what we can logically lay out in a framework, must be correct.

There are many theological systems , Calvinism, Arminianism, etc that all seem logical to us. They dot the i and cross the t for us and leave us feeling that there is nothing that cannot be answered.

But we do not understand everything about God. But our pride wants to tell us otherwise.

Any teaching that tells us that we understand everything, and here it is all logically laid out, is deceptive and untrue. We do not understand EVERYTHING.

This is not the same as saying that we cannot understand or know ANYTHING about God. Taking up that deception is to fall in the ditch on the other side of the road. We can and do know God, and continue to grow in knowledge of Him.

The Bible presents Jesus as God. Many people have attempted to understand that in various ways for the past 20 centuries. But it has been the consistent teaching of the church from the New Testament, on thru the writings of the Church fathers , down to this present day.

I promise you, Neologist, that I will not have every answer you want and neither will any man living. Only God has all knowledge and understanding and to that state we will not attain.

Satisfied? Nope? Me neither. Keep seeking Him.

0 Replies

". . .we worship what we know. . . "(John 4:22)

It seems obvious that Jesus and His Father are one in purpose and intent and that Jesus would be both a perfect representative and a perfect representation of His Father. So that you could say if you have seen Jesus, you have seen his Father.

They just ain't the same person, that's all.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

". . .we worship what we know. . . "(John 4:22)

It seems obvious that Jesus and His Father are one in purpose and intent and that Jesus would be both a perfect representative and a perfect representation of His Father. So that you could say if you have seen Jesus, you have seen his Father.

They just ain't the same person, that's all.

Yes we worship what we know. We just don't know it all.

II Pet 3:15....just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, 16 speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand...

If Peter had a hard time understanding, do you imagine that we might also?

I Cor 13:12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.

If Paul only understood partially, do you think that we will grasp it all?

As difficult as it is to understand, the Bible repeatedly gives to Christ the titles ascribed only to God. If Jesus were not God, this would be blasphemy wouldn't it?

--------------------------

To postulate Jehovah as God and Jesus as god, as if they were separate, does not square with the Bible's teaching that there is One God.

Is 44:6 "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ?'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. 7 And who is there like me? Let him call out, that he may tell it and present it to me. From when I appointed the people of long ago, both the things coming and the things that will enter in let them tell on their part. 8 Do not be in dread, YOU people, and do not become stupefied. Have I not from that time on caused you individually to hear and told [it] out? And YOU are my witnesses. Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none.'"

Is 43:10 "YOU are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

". . .we worship what we know. . . "(John 4:22)

It seems obvious that Jesus and His Father are one in purpose and intent and that Jesus would be both a perfect representative and a perfect representation of His Father. So that you could say if you have seen Jesus, you have seen his Father.

They just ain't the same person, that's all.

The same thing I would say...
Jesus was not talking about him but about His soul.
Then what means Father in the sky?

0 Replies

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

neologist wrote:
". . .we worship what we know. . . "(John 4:22)

It seems obvious that Jesus and His Father are one in purpose and intent and that Jesus would be both a perfect representative and a perfect representation of His Father. So that you could say if you have seen Jesus, you have seen his Father.

They just ain't the same person, that's all.

The same thing I would say...
Jesus was not talking about him but about His soul.
Then what means Father in the sky?

Is 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

0 Replies

:wink:

0 Replies

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

:wink:

I wholeheartedly agree, Alek. Back at ya, big guy.

0 Replies

There is at the basis of everything, a power that is continuously at work. It is the Will of the Divine that maintains the balance in the universe. You may ask that if God is controlling everything, then what is the need for human effort? God is like the electric current. To obtain light from it, you need a bulb and a wire. Truth is the current,Righteousness is the wire, Peace is the bulb and Love is the light.

0 Replies

Bible interpretations

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know