2
   

Prohibition of drugs. Criminals love to see it. Why do we make their day?

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Oct, 2019 11:55 am
@chai2,
Given that intoxication is sought by most human beings, the aim in regard to abuse isn't to eradicate all abuse. The best that can be done is to try mitigate the potential dangers of intoxication. Saffron harvesting is a delusional endeavor along the lines of prohibition. Prohibition is a much worse approach in regard to time and money than decriminalization, addiction treatment and temperance advocacy.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Oct, 2019 12:15 pm
@livinglava,
Your argument is a non-sequitur. Intoxication may, but doesn't always harm one or one's loved ones. These potential harms are better addressed through public health/medical approaches rather than prohibition measures.
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Oct, 2019 04:40 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Your argument is a non-sequitur. Intoxication may, but doesn't always harm one or one's loved ones. These potential harms are better addressed through public health/medical approaches rather than prohibition measures.

I think my post # 6,915,279 was the most clear in this regard.

Drugs are used to lure people into self-destruction. Just because everyone doesn't fall into the trap doesn't mean it's ok to set these traps for people and then exploit and abuse those who get trapped.

Drugs are used to lure people into destroying themselves and each other while exploiting them for money all the while. It's not ok.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Oct, 2019 09:26 pm
@livinglava,
We can lend a helping hand, but ultimately people are responsible for themselves and their own actions. Draconian approaches, that don't work in the first place, to intoxication for the sake of a small percentage of susceptible people are not the way to go.
Miss L Toad
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Oct, 2019 11:03 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Decriminalisation, regulation, taxation and education.

RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Oct, 2019 07:31 pm
@livinglava,
The drugs I take are meant to keep my blood pressure down so my heart doesn't explode when I see Trump the crooked president.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 08:33 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

We can lend a helping hand, but ultimately people are responsible for themselves and their own actions. Draconian approaches, that don't work in the first place, to intoxication for the sake of a small percentage of susceptible people are not the way to go.

Don't you see that it's draconian to lure people into drugs as a means of seducing them into self-destruction and exploitation of themselves and their friends and families financially to pay for their habits?

I don't understand why law enforcement and criminal justice aimed at liberating people/communities/society from the harm of drug culture draw more criticism than the culture that produces/promotes/distributes drugs as a way of wasting people's lives while milking money from them and anyone whom they can tap.

We live in a society where people are always complaining that incomes and GDP need to grow and it's because prices are driven up (and income leached) by economic waste, such as expensive recreational drug use. Recreational drugs are hardly the only form of economic waste that sucks away people's money, but it is probably one of the most senseless and harmful/destructive.
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 08:55 am
@livinglava,
I agree with you 100% even though most posters here oppose your opinion. When we take God out of equation, we are left at our own to see what is good and what is bad for us. The reality is our creator know what is best for us and most of us don't even learn lessons from our own mistakes. God prohibits the use of drugs for recreational purposes. It is permitted to use drugs only for medical purposes.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 10:40 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

It's all about control over the population and also the fortunes to be gained by those pressing the war.


I agree.

One might say that they get cash for every dead user. Bastards.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 10:44 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

I have a grandaughter who is an emit on an ambulance in a populated area. Every day she seed someone who has overdosed and many who have died. If you went out with a emit sometime you might change your mind. By the way most are either under the age of 20 or just over.


They are victims of the drug war that you seem eager to continue.

Those youth are dying more from adulterated drugs than from their addiction.

All while politicians take bribes from lobbyists for the worst killer dugs, alcohol and tobacco, which individually kill more than all the other drugs combined. The status quo is maintained by corruption and you do not seem to know that.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 10:48 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Because they like getting intoxicated.


Like every known tribe in the world.

We are all born with addictive natures as well as a desire to alter our thinking on occasion.

You seem to know your issue my friend and have spoken well on it.

Kudos.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 10:51 am
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

Or they used to like it, and are now dependent on it.

For some, it comes to the point where there is no choice in the matter.


Correct, but physical dependence is created by the constant use of a single drug.
The experts who promote legalization have posit that in a legal where all drugs are legal, a person, by rotating his drug use, can at least end his physical addiction.

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 10:59 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

chai2 wrote:

Or they used to like it, and are now dependent on it.

For some, it comes to the point where there is no choice in the matter.


Correct, but physical dependence is created by the constant use of a single drug.
The experts who promote legalization have posit that in a legal where all drugs are legal, a person, by rotating his drug use, can at least end his physical addiction.

Except he still has to pay for the drugs, or at least get someone else (or government) to pay for them.

Keeping people addicted to any combination of drugs is lucrative for some and costly for others. It is an exploitative business to the extent people can simply be sober for free and thus not burden themselves or others financially for their fix.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 11:28 am
@Miss L Toad,
Miss L Toad wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Decriminalisation, regulation, taxation and education.




That sure beats our drug war against our youth, while our politicians take bribes to maintain the status quo for the alcohol and tobacco industries.
The two drugs with the highest killing rate.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 11:35 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

chai2 wrote:

Or they used to like it, and are now dependent on it.

For some, it comes to the point where there is no choice in the matter.


Correct, but physical dependence is created by the constant use of a single drug.
The experts who promote legalization have posit that in a legal where all drugs are legal, a person, by rotating his drug use, can at least end his physical addiction.


Look at the cost of incarceration versus the cost of medical supervision and note how much we would save.

How much is it worth to you to pay for a system that saves lives instead of costing the lives of our young and having to pay for a drug war that cannot be won?

Why do you want to make the day of criminals?

Regards
DL


Except he still has to pay for the drugs, or at least get someone else (or government) to pay for them.

Keeping people addicted to any combination of drugs is lucrative for some and costly for others. It is an exploitative business to the extent people can simply be sober for free and thus not burden themselves or others financially for their fix.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 12:24 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Look at the cost of incarceration versus the cost of medical supervision and note how much we would save.

How much is it worth to you to pay for a system that saves lives instead of costing the lives of our young and having to pay for a drug war that cannot be won?

Why do you want to make the day of criminals?

What you are describing is something more general about a society that has socialist tendencies, and it is this:

1) Imagine a state of maximum efficiency, where cost-savings are maximized. In the case of recreational drugs, that state is sobriety, where no money has to be spent on drugs, incarceration, treatment, or anything else.

2) Now imagine there are people who don't want that state of maximum efficiency to exist, because they want there to be expenditures happening that make other people money, whether through incarceration, treatment programs, or just drug sales themselves.

3) Now what you are arguing, and what socialism/insurance logic argues generally is that we should choose a less-expensive socialism over a more expensive economy because there is no possibility of achieving maximum efficiency states such as sobriety, which cost nothing.

Well, you may be right or you may not, but I dislike the idea of promoting socialism by comparing it to something more expensive.

That said, there comes a point where nothing is working to achieve sobriety and/or a sustainable economy, and so more efficient forms of socialism actually represent an improvement beyond less-efficient ones that are going on in practice.

At that point, you might elect to substitute the more-efficient socialism for the less-efficient one, but the danger would be that you would accept that as a final state/solution, instead of maintaining awareness that there is a more efficient state yet, i.e. sobriety, which should be the ultimate goal.

Then the question becomes what is the most effective way to move toward the more efficient state, e.g. sobriety, without getting stuck in a semi-efficient state because it is convenient, e.g. rotating between different drugs instead of just getting sober completely.

So, for example, you could have someone in a drug-management program with absolutely no motivation to get sober because they feel safe and secure rotating drugs. But then news comes down the pipeline that the management program they're on is going to be cut/cancelled and if they go back to seeking drugs on the streets, there is a good chance whatever they find will contain lethal amounts of fentanyl and that would motivate them toward getting sober instead of just rotating drugs.

See my point? It's not that drug-management by rotating drugs isn't better than some alternative. It's that there is a better alternative, sobriety, that might fall further out of reach the longer an addict gets comfortable in a managed-drug-rotation program. It's a hard choice, because what if the person ends up backsliding and getting something on the streets that kills them, or they end up contracting HIV or some other disease from a needle, etc.?

The war on drugs is a very hard war to fight, and legalization/management/etc. are just possible tactics in the war, not an alternative to it. Many people don't like to use the language of 'war,' but that's really what it is whether you're fighting addiction at the personal level and losing or whether you are fighting the economic exploitation and waste that go hand in hand to make money off people who have been baited into self-harm and harm of others.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 02:49 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Look at the cost of incarceration versus the cost of medical supervision and note how much we would save.

How much is it worth to you to pay for a system that saves lives instead of costing the lives of our young and having to pay for a drug war that cannot be won?

Why do you want to make the day of criminals?

What you are describing is something more general about a society that has socialist tendencies, and it is this:

1) Imagine a state of maximum efficiency, where cost-savings are maximized. In the case of recreational drugs, that state is sobriety, where no money has to be spent on drugs, incarceration, treatment, or anything else.

2) Now imagine there are people who don't want that state of maximum efficiency to exist, because they want there to be expenditures happening that make other people money, whether through incarceration, treatment programs, or just drug sales themselves.

3) Now what you are arguing, and what socialism/insurance logic argues generally is that we should choose a less-expensive socialism over a more expensive economy because there is no possibility of achieving maximum efficiency states such as sobriety, which cost nothing.

Well, you may be right or you may not, but I dislike the idea of promoting socialism by comparing it to something more expensive.

That said, there comes a point where nothing is working to achieve sobriety and/or a sustainable economy, and so more efficient forms of socialism actually represent an improvement beyond less-efficient ones that are going on in practice.

At that point, you might elect to substitute the more-efficient socialism for the less-efficient one, but the danger would be that you would accept that as a final state/solution, instead of maintaining awareness that there is a more efficient state yet, i.e. sobriety, which should be the ultimate goal.

Then the question becomes what is the most effective way to move toward the more efficient state, e.g. sobriety, without getting stuck in a semi-efficient state because it is convenient, e.g. rotating between different drugs instead of just getting sober completely.

So, for example, you could have someone in a drug-management program with absolutely no motivation to get sober because they feel safe and secure rotating drugs. But then news comes down the pipeline that the management program they're on is going to be cut/cancelled and if they go back to seeking drugs on the streets, there is a good chance whatever they find will contain lethal amounts of fentanyl and that would motivate them toward getting sober instead of just rotating drugs.

See my point? It's not that drug-management by rotating drugs isn't better than some alternative. It's that there is a better alternative, sobriety, that might fall further out of reach the longer an addict gets comfortable in a managed-drug-rotation program. It's a hard choice, because what if the person ends up backsliding and getting something on the streets that kills them, or they end up contracting HIV or some other disease from a needle, etc.?

The war on drugs is a very hard war to fight, and legalization/management/etc. are just possible tactics in the war, not an alternative to it. Many people don't like to use the language of 'war,' but that's really what it is whether you're fighting addiction at the personal level and losing or whether you are fighting the economic exploitation and waste that go hand in hand to make money off people who have been baited into self-harm and harm of others.


We cannot impose sobriety when seeking intoxication is a part of our instincts and behavior patterns as shown by every tribe in every country in the world.

There are even reports that show that those who do not engage in such behavior are less well adjusted than those who do.

That is why prohibition of desired products has always failed and why the intelligentsia of the drug investigation and study have come to promote legalization for about the last hundred years.

I have read many of those reports. Have you even read one?

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 02:56 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

We cannot impose sobriety when seeking intoxication is a part of our instincts and behavior patterns as shown by every tribe in every country in the world.

That's like saying we cannot impose peace when war and killing are "part of our instincts and behavior patterns . . ."

Quote:
There are even reports that show that those who do not engage in such behavior are less well adjusted than those who do.

If so, it is probably because the strength of character that allows someone to 'just say no' and choose sobriety is the same strength of character that allows someone to admit social problems instead of hiding them to avoid stigma/ridicule and/or drowning/escaping them in substance use.

Quote:
That is why prohibition of desired products has always failed and why the intelligentsia of the drug investigation and study have come to promote legalization for about the last hundred years.

I have read many of those reports. Have you even read one?

Of course. I assume they are biased because the people working on them and funding them were biased in favor of intoxicants.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 03:37 pm
@livinglava,
Don't let yourself get lured.

Enforcement and criminal justice of anti-drug laws don't take into account the reality that people seek intoxication. This is better dealt with through other measures like the ones that have been mentioned.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 03:43 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
If God prescribed the criminalization of drugs, which he created in the first place, then he didn't exercise very much foresight into the problems he'd be creating.
 

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