True Religion

@Leadfoot,

Paul did a lot of waffling back and forth, if I remember the passage you are talking about. He said that it is probably better if you aren't married, if you can't handle the pressures, and that some live like eunuchs. But that too isn't everything.

You'll notice I did not quote that part.

However, I believe it is more or less true. At least symbolically. You see, I believe that God (unlike the dumb idols spoke of elsewhere) comes to us in person. This is the meaning of Emmanuel ("God with us") and the concept of the Body of Christ.

Can you mess up, and lose sight of God? Absolutely. But you're supposed to treat your loved one as though you have married God.
Ultimately the gospel calls us to be Bride of Christ. This is why he waffles back and forth. Some people cannot be trusted to do this without making the marriage more about carnal pleasures than developing Christ-like love. Others forget that the marriage is a sacred union, and treat it like a mundane thing, not bringing God into the marriage. These people aren't suited for marriage. But likewise, some people aren't suited for being single, as they don't cope well on their own.

Paul wishes that all men were like himself (single), but neither is he or the church pushing for celibacy. Indeed, the church would die out if that were the case, as was the fate of the Shakers. So we're given a very mixed lesson about marriage.
https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-qa/the-apostle-paul-on-marriage-and-singleness/
Get married if you want, but await the ultimate marriage when you are Bride of Christ. That's kinda the memo. I think.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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But you're supposed to treat your loved one as though you have married God.

“Love others as you love yourself." Was Christ's advice.
The idea of your spouse being an exception is one of the biggest lies of mainstream religion.

Putting anything or anyone in God's place is explicitly forbidden, married or not.
It was #1 on the list given to Moses. In case you had forgotten.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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Paul did a lot of waffling back and forth

Do you think so? Well I believe that Paul spoke more sense than you could even imagine.

How can a celibate leader of the church who has never married be a marriage councillor, or an instructor to small children, never having raised a child himself?

This is what Paul said regarding those who wished to be leaders in their church.

1 Timothy 3:1-5; This is a true saying: if a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work.

A church leader must be without fault; he must have only one wife, be sober, self-controlled, and orderly; he must welcome strangers in his home; he must be able to teach; he must not be a drunkard or a violent man, but gentle and peaceful; he must not love money; he must be able to manage his own family well and make his children obey him with all respect. For if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of the church of God?

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@The Anointed,

Paul did a ridiculous amount of waffling.

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7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. (Spits milk out) Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. ( Ah okay) 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. 7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband 11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. 16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

17 Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.

Let's see.
1. First he says a man shouldn't be having sex with a woman.
2. Then he says you're gonna be tempted to sexual immorality, so you should be married.
3. Then he says he wishes everyone were single
4. But if they haven't any self-control, they should marry.
5. But he also wants the unmarried to stay unmarried, and married to be married.
6. Then he says mixed religion marriages should stay married, and not break up.
7. But if they break up, let them stay broken up.

All of this is logically coherent. But it definitely shifts back and forth in the process.

He does a similar thing a chapter before.

Quote:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

This includes the famous passage which "condemns" homosexuality. Only it does nothing of the sort. It waffles.
1. Homosexuals can't enter the kingdom
2. But if we're going by the same model, neither are drunks and thieves.
3. Some of you here are definitely past sinners.
4. But you were washed clean by Jesus's blood
5. (In fact, rather than a one time forgiveness, you are forgiven 70 times 7 times (there's no limit, it's a metaphorical number)) So you can do anything.
6. But not everything is good for you (even though God forgives you, you can still get AIDS or some STD, it's not God being mean just us not being careful).
7. Basically, despite the fact that you can technically abuse your body, it's on loan from God. So you probably shouldn't have anal sex or drink yourself to a stupor.
8. (But technically, God does give us free will, and we can do anything. It's just kinda a crap thing to do)

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@bulmabriefs144,

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Some of you here are definitely past sinners.

"ALL" have sinned young fellow.

Knowing that the Lord God said that death is the punishment for sin, and that we are all sinners and all must die once (The first death which is that in which the invisible mind=spirit develops) then the disembodied spirit goes off into judgement.

In Ezekiel, the Lord God is referring to the second death, which is the eternal death from which there is no return, the death of the mind=spirit of the unrepentant wicked, which wicked spirit is divided from the soul, to which empt,ied soul God will give a new body in which to develop a new mind.

Ezekiel 18: 21-24; “If an evil person stops sinning and keeps my laws, if he does what is right and good, he will not die; he will certainly live. All his sins will be forgiven, and he will live, because he did what is right. Do you think I enjoy seeing an evil person die?” asks the Sovereign LORD. “No, I would rather see him "REPENT AND LIVE".

“But if a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing all the evil, disgusting things that evil people do, will he go on living? No! None of the good he did will be remembered. He will die because of his unfaithfulness and his sins.

Revelation 21: speaks of the Great day of Judgement, after the thousand years rule of Jesus, and heavenly fire has incinerated all physical life forms on this earth, and the oceans have evaporated and are seen no more.

It is then that our Lord God and saviour reclaims his throne on which he had placed Jesus as his caretaker ruler, and He then divides all the disembodied spirits as one divides the sheep from the goats as revealed by Jesus in Matthew 25, which is referring to the same event as seen in Revelation 21: 5-8;

Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it. Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.

But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is 'THE SECOND DEATH'.”

In reference to the Lord reclaiming his throne: 1 Corinthians 15: 25-28; “For Christ must rule until God defeats all enemies and puts them under his feet.

The last enemy to be defeated will be death. For the scripture says, “God put all things under his feet.” It is clear, of course, that the words “all things” do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ. But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

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@The Anointed,

You seem to have taken the "all have sinned" passage out of context.

"All have sinned" is relevant, because of this passage. If all have sinned and we simply condemn everyone in the world (heaven knows I've felt this way), then we turn life into a big judgement party. Hey we could even name a festival after that! We could call it... Judgement Day.

If however, the point is cutting other people slack, then I have sinned, they have sinned, no big deal. The only issue after that, is other people trying to force their laws on you. If we live and die according to laws, then Christ died for nothing.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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If we live and die according to laws, then Christ died for nothing.

Jesus said, If you love God with all your heart with all your mind and with all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself, then you will live, for the complete law is fulfilled in those two commands.

Jesus also said that when the SON OF MAN divides the righteous spirits on his right from the wicked spirits on his left, he will say to those on his left; "‘Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.’
‘I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me.’

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@The Anointed,

You have not read the Letters? And you seem to pick and choose about the Gospel for that matter.

So let me ask a very blunt question. Why did Jesus come to the Earth? Why did he die on the cross?

Was it to replace the Law of Moses with an even harsher LAW? (ALL CAPS to show the hardcore nature)

I mean, we could take his statement that someone who calls another "fool" is guilty of murder (depression hurts, everyone!) and that someone who looks at a woman with lust who is married commits adultery as a new law at face value. We'd also have a very screwed up and miserable society. Or we could hear that Jesus said the master will judge people based on whether they fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the stranger, etc. The shopkeeper does this on a daily basis. But a persob totally isolated from others never has this opportunity. Does this mean lonely (rather than just selfish) people are damned?

Think about human history, and think about Biblical history. We had a number of harsh human laws. "An eye for an eye." (Lex Talionis) "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" (Mandatory sharing under communism) "Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah" and "since it has hooves which are split, but it does not chew its cud—it is therefore unclean for you." ( Muslim halal and Jewish kosher, respectively) "We asks that you mask." (COVID signs, before mandates were found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court)
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/supreme-court-strikes-down-joe-bidens-unconstitutional-vaccine-mandate-upholds-individual-choice
What is the point of Jesus if he is just another member of the group of lawgivers? Jews were already living under Roman law and Jewish law.

Now, let's talk about Jesus. He doesn't wash his hands, calling this a manmade laws not a law of God. He gathers grain on the Sabbath. He heals on the Sabbath. He called the religious elders hypocrites. He overturned tables at the Temple market. He told people to pay to Caesar what is his, and to God what is his (this sounds like obeying the state, but it actually isn't because Jewish law didn't respect Roman sovereignty, God owns everything while Caesar doesn't own us). He told them also that if they needed tax money, they could get it from the mouth of a fish (stinky money).

Jews already had laws. Romans already had laws. Did Jesus come to show people how to follow the law? Clearly not. He died in fact as an outlaw.

Yet, Christianity advocates neither for strict obedience to laws nor for violent revolution. Rather it preaches about true freedom under God.

Not licentious behavior. Not sin. Not legalism or moralism either.

Now as for you. You've been giving me bad advice. Galatians 1:8 says that anyone who preaches a gospel at odds with the one given is under a curse. Jesus came to condemn the righteous and forgive the sinners. Jesus came to set people free of their bonds.

He did not come to follow laws, or to tell people to follow laws. He did not come to be lawless either. He came to die on the cross.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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He did not come to follow laws, or to tell people to follow laws. He did not come to be lawless either. He came to die on the cross.

That is true, but dying on the cross was not a magical spiritual incantation as mainstream religion often teaches. Neither was his blood a spiritual whitewashing for our souls.

God’s Son came to help us understand that we must find his laws written in our hearts . We do that by looking within and pondering the things he said to us, and then following the path he will lay before you. There will be challenges as he promised; they must be faced even unto death if necessary. He is our example. We have his recorded words and spirit to help.

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If we can eliminate the supernatural from religion, then the significance of religion is realized inside our psyches. The supernatural stems from a second-hand interpretation of religious symbols and myths.

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@coluber2001,

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The supernatural stems from a second-hand interpretation of religious symbols and myths.

Quite right. One should never accept second-hand interpretations of either religious symbols and myths or science and technology.

Always Make your own interpretations.

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@Leadfoot,

Well "think for yourself" was always good advice...that is for those who can do it of course. That leaves out 2/3 of the population.

So there you have why Religion, Shrinks and Marketing/Fashion have a job!

1 Reply

@bulmabriefs144,

Quote:

So let me ask a very blunt question. Why did Jesus come to the Earth? Why did he die on the cross?

To begin with Jesus was born on the earth as are all human beings who are born of the seed of Adam, it was our Lord God and saviour who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS, which he shall speak in MY NAME, I will punish, etc.”

It was HE, our Lord God and saviour, who came down to earth on the day that Jesus was baptised, and the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my son, ‘THIS DAY’ I have begotten thee.”

From that day on, the man Jesus was the earthly temple of the Lord. The words that Jesus spoke were not his words, but the words of our Lord who had filled him with his spirit, The Lord who said through the mouth of Jesus concerning the eating of his spiritual body; “The flesh is of no use at all, it is the spirit that gives life and 'MY WORDS' are spirit and life.” The miracles were not the miracles of the man Jesus, but of the Lord who had chosen him as his heir and successor on the day that he was baptised.

Nor was it Jesus who died on the cross. When Jesus gave up the spirit crying out; “My God, my God why have you abandoned me”, it was our Lord God and saviour (The Son of Man) who could never actually die, but who laid his life down, to later take it up again, as he then ceased to be an individual entity by releasing all the righteous spirits that had been gathered to him in his ascent to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation.

At the very moment that Jesus gave up the spirit, all the graves of those saints were opened, and Jesus whose body lay in a deathlike state, without the process of decomposition ever having begun, then descended into the world of hades and preached the Good News also to those who had died in CHRIST the anointed one, in order that in their spiritual existence they might live as God lives, then three days later, He with those righteous saints came out of their graves and entered the holy city of Jerusalem, and revealed themselves as the risen body of CHRIST.

The word “CHRIST” means “The Anointed One.” Enoch was the one anointed by the Most-High in the creation, ‘The Lord of Creatures,’ as his Heir and successor, (The Son of Man) who is Lord of spirits.

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before ‘MY’ face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord’s face.

[Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael."]

And the Most-High (The Lord of Creatures) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before ‘MY’ face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory."

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

To translate something is to change it from one form to another. Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not experience death, and he was not found because God had translated him.”

Enoch was the one from the earlier age of Man that was destroyed by water, who was chosen and anointed to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity.

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@Albuquerque,

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Well "think for yourself" was always good advice...that is for those who can do it of course. That leaves out 2/3 of the population.

I'd say you are being generous, but in their defense (or condemnation) I would say 'choose to' rather than 'can'.

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@Leadfoot,

The magical number 2/3 is everywhere in social ecosystems and not exclusive to Human species...the backbone of society is meant to do, execute, follow, not debate or think about it!
This distribution can also be find out of Sociology and in Biology when it comes to the numbers of grazers/prey and predators with some level of variation of course.

One of the discoveries in the 60's (I think) was that the IQ distribution all around the world was similar be it in a University or in a fabric with blue colour workers...it seams that in order for social ecosystems to work properly leaderships need yes man and executers to function at all.

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@Leadfoot,

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we must find his laws written in our hearts

And his laws are written in our hearts. These are the very laws that we impose upon the society in which we live.

Do not harm or kill me or mine, do not steal from me or mind, do not bear false witness against me or mine before the Judge and have us condemned for that which we did not do, do not have sexual relations with my chosen life's partner, etc, etc, etc.

You are your own Judge my friend, if you break the very law that you impose on others, you have condemned yourself before the judge of all.

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@The Anointed,

Don’t be so cryptic brother, it might be misunderstood.
(Like I can talk : )

But in this case the only thing I was imposing on them was the burden of freedom (of choice).
No?

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@The Anointed,

You philosophies are based up “toggling” double mindedness.or “prisoner of consciousness” logic….

AWARENESS sits above consciousness.

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@The Anointed,

While I do ageee that these principles are so, I am not convinced of the idea of a loving God tossing people into hellfire. As far as I am concerned, hell is a sort of abstraction for the pain of a life that is improperly lived.

I have always believed that the Afterlife is a bit like water. Fill the water with sugar, it is sweer water. Salt, it is salt water. ****, it is **** water. It becomes what we bring with us. And because we bring our suffering, our bitterness, our hatred with us, most often we need Jesus to be saved.

It isn't so much punishment as it is that we kinda create a nasty environment for ourselves, and this carries on into death. If I go around being cruel to everyone they're gonna likely be cruel right back. The problem id alot of people who use or manipulate others, who don't really ever seem to get punished. We invent a version of God that is just more than kind. But the truth is that all of us are probably in misery, even if it is not seen. What I'd like far more than a God that sentences us to hell for our malice is one who fishes us out again.

My problem is that I'm just shy, but somehow people decide I'm aloof. So they treat me far worse than I'd like. And as a result, I've decided to avoid people. I'm miserable and lonely most of my life. So I go to webforums to try to talk to people, but all I find is forums run by debate twits, or power-freak mods (actually worse, which is why I've shunned such forums), or people as lonely as I. There is no worse Hell that anything made by your own torment.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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What I'd like far more than a God that sentences us to hell for our malice is one who fishes us out again.

And that is exactly what you've got.

Ezekiel 18: 21-23; "“If an evil person stops sinning and keeps my laws, if he does what is right and good, he will not die; he will certainly live. All his sins will be forgiven, and he will live, because he did what is right. Do you think I enjoy seeing an evil person die?” asks the Sovereign LORD. “No, I would rather see him repent and live.?

Death is the penalty of sin, not eternal life in hell, the lake burning with fire and sulfur, is the second death for those minds that have survived the first death of the body in which they had developed.

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