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White House repeatedly edited global warming reports

 
 
Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 07:56 am
McGentrix wrote:
Tell me Parados, what will the temperature be next year? What will it be in ten years? 20 years? 100?

I'd like you to document these temperature readings and get back to me on it. That way, I will know how to plan my vacation around the warming, or cooling and the scientists can detail their findings around your facts.

IF warming trends continue as they are, there MAY be reductions in mountain glaciers and IT MAY advance the timing of the melt of mountain snow pack in polar regions.

See the difference?


You chose to ignore what is happening now. Polar ice is melting. Permafrost is melting. Brush is growing on the tundra.
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Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 07:57 am
Joe Nation wrote:


As Bob Dylan once wrote, You Don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
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Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 08:04 am
McGentrix wrote:
parados wrote:
McGentrix wrote:




Why would I claim that? Understanding what could happen is a far far cry from stating what will happen. You appear to keep missing the point.


I am trying to understand your position on this Parados, but you are making it far too difficult.

I stated that making absolute statements in a scientific report on the effects of predictions is absurd. I am not following how I am contradicting myself. Perhaps you couold make another attepmt, in English this time, explaining the contradiction I have made.



McGentrix's argument is specious. His could/will statement has no place in a scientific discussion.

This sort of argument exists only to keep people from assuming responsibility for the mess the planet is in.

As for his effort to understand Parados' argument, it isn't that Parados is being difficult, it's that McGentrix approaches the matter both with a closed mind, and, I suspect, little knowledge of science beyond his ninth grade course of study.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 08:40 am
Atkins, take your pettiness elsewhere.
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Cycloptichorn
 
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Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 10:01 am
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/sc/2005/sc050609.gif

Cycloptichorn
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Atkins
 
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Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 10:33 am
McGentrix wrote:
parados wrote:
McGentrix wrote:


I assume you understand that a prediction is a guess and not a fact, right? Keep in mind that we are discussing the paragraph that was edited and not global warming science. Trends change, predictions vary. To state something as a fact in an official government release would be a mistake. That's why it is SOP to have a committee vet any documents before they are released.

So, I can assume you were and are completely against putting money in the stock market based on your claim that a prediction is only a guess. You do keep the SAME standard at all times. Right McG?


Please try staying with the subject of this thread.



And you have the nerve to call me petty?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 10:43 am
Atkins wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
parados wrote:
McGentrix wrote:


I assume you understand that a prediction is a guess and not a fact, right? Keep in mind that we are discussing the paragraph that was edited and not global warming science. Trends change, predictions vary. To state something as a fact in an official government release would be a mistake. That's why it is SOP to have a committee vet any documents before they are released.

So, I can assume you were and are completely against putting money in the stock market based on your claim that a prediction is only a guess. You do keep the SAME standard at all times. Right McG?


Please try staying with the subject of this thread.



And you have the nerve to call me petty?


Please add me to your list of posters you refuse to read. I have never been so envious of Ticomaya as I am right now.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:59 am
Based on that uncertainty, our constituents hardly need "global governance," but they do deserve responsible governance at home.

Source
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 08:52 pm
Poor New Zealand.

Govt admits huge Kyoto cost miscalculation
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Scrat
 
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Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 06:57 am
JustWonders wrote:

Hadn't you heard? Kyoto won't cost anybody anything! ;-)

(Seriously, thanks for the link. Good information!)
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:11 am
U.S. Pressure Weakens G-8 Climate Plan



Global-Warming Science Assailed

By Juliet Eilperin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 17, 2005; Page A01



Bush administration officials working behind the scenes have succeeded in weakening key sections of a proposal for joint action by the eight major industrialized nations to curb climate change.
Continued
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/16/AR2005061601666.html
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:01 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Based on that uncertainty, our constituents hardly need "global governance," but they do deserve responsible governance at home.

Source
I love the hilighted quote from Lindzen from 5 years ago. Even Lindzen, who's research at the time was suspect, has admitted since then that global warming exists. He has changed his tune to one of 'global warming is good' from his earlier argument of "global warming doesn't exist." A much safer argument for him but it hardly points to science as the basis for his argument.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2005 08:21 am
parados - Got a citation on Lindzen's current position on GW as you understand it?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2005 08:51 am
Scrat wrote:
parados - Got a citation on Lindzen's current position on GW as you understand it?

I am not parados, but the latest statement I see on Lindzen's website dates from 2001, and it is more or less like what McG. quoted. Judging by his peer-reviewed publications since then, Lindzen doesn't seem to have come across anything that would have drastically changed his mind. And I suppose if Lindzen had done so, he'd let us know.

(Here is Lindzen's home page.)
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Scrat
 
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Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2005 10:58 am
Thomas - Thanks for that. I am likewise unaware of any sea-change in Lindzen's point of view, but thought I might have missed something.
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parados
 
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Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2005 07:40 am
Having spent time looking at Lindzen's actual research rather than the way it has been portrayed, it appears my statement of Lindzen's change of position may have been a little overdramatic. It appears that the naysayers of global warming have misused Lindzen for their purposes. Lindzen is often found quoted in articles claiming that there is no such thing as global warming. That may not have been Lindzen's position at all.


This is what I find Lindzen's present position to be. This is a piece Lindzen wrote about the IPCC report that he was a member of.

Quote:
We are quite confident (1) that global mean temperature is about 0.5 degrees Celsius higher than it was a century ago; (2) that atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide have risen over the past two centuries; and (3) that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas whose increase is likely to warm the earth (one of many, the most important being water vapor and clouds)....

What we do is know that a doubling of carbon dioxide by itself would produce only a modest temperature increase of one degree Celsius. Larger projected increases depend on "amplification" of the carbon dioxide by more important, but poorly modeled, greenhouse gases, clouds and water vapor.
source

Lindzen's present position appears to be that as the earth warms from CO2 the cloud cover will change resulting in a cooling effect to counteract the warming. Thus he disagrees with the extreme models that show large temperature increases over the next 100 years.

Lindzen's published piece

Thanks for the link to Lindzen's website Thomas. It has his published pieces and responses to scientific criticisms of his work.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2005 08:02 am
parados wrote:
Lindzen's present position appears to be that as the earth warms from CO2 the cloud cover will change resulting in a cooling effect to counteract the warming. Thus he disagrees with the extreme models that show large temperature increases over the next 100 years.

Perhaps even more importantly, his position is that the scientific community's confidence in their projections is too easy to oversell. This, in turn, makes the scientists who publish these projections too easy to misrepresent as authority figures in selling those projections. And that, in turn, makes it too easy to demand drastic political action long before the state of the art in science justifies such demands. I am going by memory, from my earlier reading of Lindzen's writing. But I can go dig out the quotes if somebody doubts my summary.
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Scrat
 
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Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2005 09:22 am
Parados - Yes, that's much more in line with my understanding of Lindzen's POV.
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Thomas
 
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Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2005 12:59 pm
If I may get back to the subject of this thread. Aside of the question how scary global warming actually is: Would any supporter of the current administration argue that it is good policy when oil industry lobbyists review and edit scientific reports about the impact of CO2 emissions? Would you deny that the setup has "conflict of interest" written all over it?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2005 01:17 pm
I would hope that anyone given a task would perform that task to the best of their abilities regardless of their previous employment.
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