Will A.I. condemn this Human Rights Abuse?

I'm sure they're all over this one.
I could barely tell the incidences apart.

If it was HOT sausage, definately torture.

Sweet sausage???.... does not meet the minimum requirements for torture!

Jimmy Dean disavows all knowledge of these events.

interesting thread; calling for some sort of moral equivalence between state sponsored torture and the already admitted illegal actions of two private prison guards who will be punished for their actions.

clearly, this is a puerile attempt to make amnesty international look foolish. but it is more a reflection of someone who thinks that the world would be better off if there was no international organization that cared whether or not people were being tortured by governments.

imagine that, here on a2k, people who doesn't care if other folks are tortured, or maybe they really do care, but they just don't want anyone to know when its done. Same thing. How's that for moral equivalence?

It could be all that kuvasz, or it could not be.

You say that this thread is "calling for some sort of moral equivalence between state sponsored torture and the already admitted illegal actions of two private prison guards who will be punished for their actions."

I do not see that at all, and I started the thread. Let me ask this question though... which "state sponsored torture" are you referring too? I know it couldn't be the US because the US does not sponsor torture. I know that because it is condemned and those found guilty of it have been punished. So what state is sponsoring the torture you refer too?

Continuing, A.I serves an important task. It administration just goes off track once in awhile and they lose their bearings. They start throwing terms like "gulag" around as though the term is reflective of some modern crisis...

I think maybe you are reading more into others motivations and might want to pause, take a breath and start again.

Tis odd, isn't it K, that in a group such as this there exists a subset of characters without any apparent character? I mean, what is the difference between condoning torture and belittling those who report it's purveyors??

The lesson is clear. Speak not ill of our great leaders.

When Amnesty International spoke out against the Chinese oppressors, against the Iraqi massacres, against the pogrom of the Soviets, that was okay with this bunch, but speak ill of our own leaders and their motives and actions and plans, well..... that to them is blasphemy.

Joe

What press coverage was there in regards to the Chinese oppression, Iraqi massacres, and the pogrom of the Soviets? What world discussion took place over those events?

The events that AI refer too in regards to the US are not secret. There have been no attempts to cover them up. FOIA documents abound and the military make it's reports readily available.

Are you really so blind to the difference in what the US has done in relation to the other crimes you compare here?

Oppression, massacre, and wholesale slaughter. This is what you are comparing the warehousing of suspected terrorists. Do you really fail to see the difference?

Oh, and I forgot, they try very hard to make it be about the word "gulag" when the message, the meaning, the evidence, was much more than that one word, but if they can get the argument to be about the word rather than the more difficult to face facts, they win.

Remember that you are dealing with people who gain power through ridicule, not ideas, but hot words, not direct discussion but sideways glances full of coded signals - the right to life, the sanctity of marriage, the death tax, up or down votes, the contract with America ... ad nauseum, and all of it wrapped up in the unswerving loyalty to the cause of the conservative right wing. Simple slogans to combat complex solutions.

And they do it without any sense of shame.

Pity I couldn't find a more appropriate emoticon.

SO good to see Mcgentrix's nonsense being called for what it is.

Thank god for Richard Nixon, without his misadventures we Americans would not have had the FOIA. As for the comment that there has been no attempt to cover anything up, phooey. If it wasn't for the GI's with cameras no one would have known anything about the treatment of prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan nor in Guantanamo. There was no access of any kind for anyone at Guantanamo for over sixteen months and what little access there is is the result of lawsuits and not the readily available information from the military.

Who's fool do you think I am?
Joe

Can you back that up Joe? I do not think you can as US investigations were long underway in regards to Abu Ghraib before the pictures came out. None of it was covered up.

Yes. A report had been written, read and ignored by top level personnel including Donald (I'm not sure I read all of it) Rumsfeld. It wasn't until CBS 60 Minutes II broadcast the first pictures, including the infamous man in a hood with wires on a bucket, that the American public had any idea what had been going on.



I'm sure you believe the Bush Administration was about to make a major disclosure.

How you treat your prisoner is who you are.

You must have some evidence, would you mind sharing it so I can be as informed as you are?

Look, this thread was started with the idea of hee-hawing Amnesty International which is the tack the right wing is taking of late because A.I. deigned to print some uncomplimentary things about the US Human Rights Policy. AI was just fine when they agreed with Bush, now they are good for nothings.

It's a propaganda technique, it's called deflection. You don't talk about how to solve problems or what is true, you change the subject. You guys who believe in the scam called compassionate conservatism fall for it every time.

Instead of telling people you want to dismantle Social Security, you tell them it's broke (it isn't) and you offer a program called "Private Accounts" that doesn't address the problem of solvency, even if it was broke, which it isn't, but it deflects people from looking at what you really have in mind. And if anybody, anybody, speaks ill of the deflection, you jump on them for being liberal. I'll bet you didn't know that the American Association of Retired People was a liberal bastion. They sure didn't until they said some things that were off-message to the White House.

And you don't tell people you want to fill the courthouses with rightwing cranks, first, you tell them all about the activist judges, oo bad, bad activist judges, knowing that the persons you are about to install will apply activism in a manner more suited to the right wing bent.

And I know Karl Rove must go to bed chuckling every night because he's figured out another way to get people to vote against their own economic interests by putting out another hee-haw issue. OOh Never mind there is no job growth, watch out for those gay people. Never mind that the taxes on the middle class are rising to pay for the tax cuts given to the extra super duper rich, the liberals are trying to take your guns. Don't pay any attention to the fact that your town's infrastructure is crumbling, thank Jesus, we are protecting the unborn.

It's a shell game of enormous proportions and this thread subject is a perfect example of the technique. Thanks. Thank you very much for helping to clarify just how the right wing operates.

BTW, income is rising for the very rich compared to the middle class at a rate of $16,000 to one over the most recent years. That is, for every extra dollar you and I have managed to earn and keep, they've gotten 16,000. They have been voting for their economic interests, not deflections.

Joe(How are you doing, Kansas? Ohio? Florida? Look ma, there ain't no pea under that shell!! )Nation

That's a very frustrated post, Joe. It doesn't really answer my request though. In fact, it seems to try to deflect away from my question. It seems your post is guilty of the very things you accuse me of, except you chose to add a bit of ad hominem into yours.

Social security, income differences, Karl Rove... None of that even touches on the topic.

Peachy, New York. Just peachy.

I salute your new personal philosophy of objectivity. Would that it had been there in the run-up to Bush's war in Iraq. You might have been able to see what lying sacks of $hit the Busheviks were.

Joe Nation has pointed out the propaganda technique you used to denigrate AI and its attempt to hold governments to a modicum of civilized behavior.

One wonders just what evidence you need to accept that the American government has systematically employed torture as a means to elicit information from prisoners it holds all over the world in its prison.

There is ample evidence to show this is true for anyone who is has an open mind and is serious about this, but just what level of complicity do you need to accept that this is being done in the name of all Americans?

You can examine the AI site on this directly via this link.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510782004

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511142003

You can read thru the emails from FBI agents who reported that military personnel were masquerading as FBI agents in Guantánamo and were abusing prisoners, with the support and knowledge of their superiors.

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/052505/

http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/

And they covered their tracks in doing so, according to FBI agents on the scene.

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/030905/

DOD 000508 - 000511
Statement of SPC, 321 MI BN;Annex to Fay/Jones/Kern Report

"States that at Camp Cropper, "it was well known that detainees who were brought into the facility complained of beatings from members of Seal team 5 and TF 20 personnel. Notes it was "common practice to use sleep deprivation and sleep management with the detainees. . . .It was also common that the detainees on MI hold in the hard site were initially kept naked and given clothing as an incentive to cooperate with us." Records possible abuse of a Syrian detainee who may have been hit by MPs, "cutting his ear to the extent that it required stitches." Notes seeing a barking dog in an interrogation cell and refers to this as a "fear up" technique, and states that a female colleague told subject that she had stripped an uncooperative detainee and walked from the conex area to the Camp Vigilant area on a cold night of about 30 degrees. Reports knowledge of incident in which interrogators made a female detainee remove her shirt. Adds, "it was common knowledge that REDACTED used sleep deprivation and dogs while he was on his special projects, working directly for Col Pappas." Reports hearing of dogs being used on detainees and MPs referring to "doggy dance" sessions. Describes another incident in which two naked prisoners were made to crawl on the floor."

DOD 000571- 000573
Sworn Statement of Major, Assistant S-3 for the 20th MI BDE.; Annex to Fay/Jones/Kern Report

Notes that Pappas took over command of the 205th MI BDE on July 1, 2004 and that at "all operations" were consolidated in Abu Ghraib and he became Deputy commander for the Joint Interrogation Debriefing Center (JIDC). Notes that Sanchez was not happy with the intelligence coming out of interrogations. Adds, "Col. Pappas did not tell me to check on the well-being or care of detainees. He didn't tell me to ensure everyone was in compliance with the IROEs or the Geneva Convention. I do remember seeing the policy that specified that LTG Sanchez had to approve certain interrogation techniques. . . . MG Miller visited Abu Ghraib facility and recommended the Tiger Teams concept be implemented. The concept I was told was 1 X interrogators, 1X linguist, 1X report writer, and 1 X analyst. My orders were to go to Abu Ghraib and set up the Tiger Teams to conduct interrogations." Notes that OGA would drop off detainees, that they were not accounted for, and that "Pappas told us we would work with OGA and allow them to bring detainees and not process them. . . .Pappas said that OGA did not want our interrogators to sit in their interrogations because this would open our interrogators to liability." Records death of OGA detainee "Both LTC Pappas and I were shocked. Col. Pappas said to get redacted in and that he was not going down alone on this. OGA did not want to just take the dead body. They placed the body in a body bag and placed ice in it. . . . The next day the body was taken away on a stretcher to make it seem as if the detainee was ill. I was told an autopsy was conducted."


DOD 000580 - 000581
Sworn Statement of Civilian providing overall assessment of interrogation operations, training and advice, E. Co, 309th MI Bn, Annex to Fay/Jones/Kern Report

Notes, "I did see detainees in various states of dress to include nakedness and detainees. The MPs used segregation and stripping as a way to keep the detainees under control and to keep them from talking. . . .On one occasion, I had a conversation with REDACTED concerning the IROE and interrogation approaches. I gave him examples of approached including Pride and Ego Down where an interrogator took a Koran, threw it on the floor and stepped on it and Fear Up harsh where the interrogator had a a dog trained to bark on cue if the interrogator thought the detainee was lying. I also explained sleep deprivation. I told him that in Afghanistan the interrogators could use an adjusted sleep schedule for detainees. The conversation was meant to explain why these activities were prohibited or restricted. . . . There was intense pressure from the command to provide intelligence reporting."


DOD 00598 - 000606
Sworn Statement of CPT, 519 MI BNAnnex to Fay/Jones/Kern Report

States that JTF-GTMO model could not be replicated in Iraq but "Miller appeared to press forward with his JTF-GTMO recommendations." States that Sanchez visited AGP on 30 Sept and then in the beginning of Nov 03 when he "expressed concern about the interrogation operation to Col. Pappas and indicated that the issue would be further discussed 'later.'" Sanchez issued a FRAGO on 19 Nov 03, appointing Pappas as the FOB Commander, giving him responsibility for all assigned at AG. "I believed that MI should not become involved in detainee or prison operations . . . The FRAGO generated tension between MIs and MPs." "We had used 'sleep adjustment' and 'stress positions' as effective techniques in Afghanistan. Although I never saw written authorization, the techniques had SJA and CJTF-180 C-2X/C2 review and approval on a case by case basis. . . . I concluded they would be effective tools for interrogation operations at AG. . . . Because the winds of war were changing and the mounting pressure from higher for 'actionable intelligence' from interrogation operations, I requested more options than FM 34-52 provided. REDACTED acquired a copy of TF-121 IROE and essentially 'plagiarized,' it . . . and then submitted the IROE . . . for approval." Records IROEs dated 10 Sep 03 and 14 Sep. 03, and states that "I created a slide which sythesized the 15 September IROE and posted the IROE in numerous locations throughout the working area as a constant reminder. This original slide contained three columns--the first column general interrogation techniques IAW FM 34-52. Techniques outside of the FM were placed in a second column which I titled 'OIC approval required prior to use.' . . . The third column was titled 'CG's approval required for use on EPWs. After the subsequent IROE MFR was signed by LTG Sanchez on 12 Oct 03, I created a second slide to reflect the changes . . . ." Records objection to "overnight parking" of OGA detainees, which was overriden after death of an OGA detainee.


DOD 000607 - 000608
Sworn Statement of analyst. 1st MI Bn, 205th MI Bde; Annex to Fay/Jones/Kern Report

Notes, "[a]round 15 or 16 Dec 03, the Tiger Teams were called together" by Pappas "who told us that anything listed on the IROE has been 'pre-approved' by LTG Sanchez. An Iraqi general was assigned to us for interrogation. . . . It was decided to transport [him] from his cell to the shower facility in the nude." Notes, "our team used sleep deprivation on occasion we were informed by ICE operations that the procedure had been approved, I do not know what level."

I could go on and on cutting and pasting summaries of emails and reports by investigators, but it is clear that those at the highest levels of the military and Defense Dept sanctioned this sort of behavior.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/us0405/_ftn105#_ftn105

Secretary Rumsfeld created the conditions for U.S. troops to commit war crimes and torture by sidelining and disparaging the Geneva Conventions, by approving interrogation techniques that violated the Geneva Conventions as well as the Convention against Torture, and by approving the hiding of detainees from the International Committee of the Red Cross. From the earliest days of the war in Afghanistan, Secretary Rumsfeld was on notice through briefings, ICRC reports, human rights reports, and press accounts that U.S. troops were committing war crimes, including acts of torture. However, there is no evidence that he ever exerted his authority and warned that the mistreatment of prisoners must stop. Had he done so, many of the crimes committed by U.S. forces could have been avoided.

Secretary Rumsfeld approved interrogation methods that violated the Geneva Conventions and the Convention against Torture

Secretary Rumsfeld was intimately involved in the minutiae of interrogation techniques for detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, for whom the U. S. government had announced that POW protections would not apply. On December 2, 2002, responding to a request from officers at Guantánamo, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized a list of techniques for interrogation of prisoners in Guantánamo that was an unprecedented expansion of army doctrine.

That doctrine is embodied in Department of the Army Field Manual 34-52: Intelligence Interrogation, which stresses cooperation as the basis for successful interrogation. It specifically prohibits torture or coercion. The field manual also lists relevant sections of the Geneva Conventions, including the prohibition against, "subjecting the individual to humiliating or degrading treatment, implying harm to the individual or his property or implying a deprivation of rights guaranteed under international law because of failure to cooperate" (Field Manual 34-52: Intelligence Interrogation, U.S. Department of the Army, September 1992). As the working group on interrogation techniques established by Secretary Rumsfeld pointed out, "Army interrogation experts view the use of force as an inferior technique that yields information of questionable quality" ("Working Group Report on Detainee Interrogations on the Global War on Terrorism: Assessment of Legal, Historical, Policy, and Operational Considerations," April 4, 2003 [online], http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/040403dod.pdf, p. 53).

The techniques approved by Rumsfeld included:

"The use of stress positions (like standing) for a maximum of four hours";

"Isolation up to 30 days;

"The detainee may also have a hood placed over his head during transportation and questioning";

"Deprivation of light and auditory stimuli";

"Removal of all comfort items (including religious items)";

"Forced grooming (shaving of facial hair, etc)";

"Removal of clothing"; and

"Using detainees' individual phobias (such as fear of dogs) to induce stress."


These methods violate the protections afforded to POWs, the presumptive classification of many of the Guantánamo detainees. Depending on how they are used, these methods also likely violate the Geneva Conventions' prohibition on torture or inhuman treatment of prisoners, regardless of whether the prisoners are entitled to POW protections. Their use on prisoners would thus constitute a war crime.

Additionally, Army Field Manual 34-52 cites "forcing an individual to stand, sit, or kneel in abnormal positions for prolonged periods of time" as an example of torture. Mental torture includes "abnormal sleep deprivation," which may or may not have resulted from the authorization of light control and loud music. The field manual also prohibits forms of coercion including threats. Perhaps most importantly, the field manual instructs soldiers, when in doubt, to ask themselves: "If your contemplated actions were perpetrated by the enemy against U.S. POWs, you would believe such actions violate international or U.S. law."

As the U.N.'s Special Rapporteur on Torture made clear in his 2004 report to the U.N. General Assembly, the techniques also violate the prohibitions of the Convention against Torture.

Even a cursory reading of the information on the links provided would show that what happened in the US prison camps were done with the approval of the top people at the Defense Dept, yet not a single one of them have been indicted or faced a courts marshall.

These people did this in the name of America. Don't you guys get this? People were tortured in our name, and yet you scoff at evidence of it and go merrily along about your business, like those good Germans who never heard of the Nazi concentration camps.


A final Note on Command Responsibility

The first and most significant U.S. case involving "command responsibility" was that of General Tomoyuki Yamashita, commander of the Japanese forces in the Philippines in World War II, whose troops committed brutal atrocities against the civilian population and prisoners of war. Gen. Yamashita, who had lost almost all command, control, and communications over his troops, was nevertheless convicted by the International Military Tribunal in Tokyo based on the doctrine of command responsibility. The U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the decision, holding that General Yamashita was, by virtue of his position as commander of the Japanese forces in the Philippines, under an "affirmative duty to take such measures as were within his power and appropriate in the circumstances to protect prisoners of war and the civilian population." General Yamashita was executed by hanging.

It doesnt' matter how much info you present, these hawks will never believe that we could possibly be wrong.

They really are 'Good Germans'.....

Cycloptichorn