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Is persuasion dead

 
 
rayban1
 
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 11:08 am
The following article is from the New York Times therefore it should be accepted as the gosphel by the left. Is the art of persuasion dead? Just looking around at the pitiful partisan rhetoric on this forum, the conclusion is that yes, it is not only dead but decaying. As the author says: resurrection will not be easy and that alienation is the only possible reaction to the fanaticism of both the left and the right.

The fact remains......the author poses a serious question which deserves an attempt to present a serious discussion even though the author contributes to the partisanship by referencing Ann Coulter to the exclusion of those on the left who also insult our intelligence such as Al Franken and Howard Dean

Is Persuasion Dead?


By MATT MILLER
Published: June 4, 2005

Speaking just between us - between one who writes columns and those who read them - I've had this nagging question about the whole enterprise we're engaged in.
Skip to next paragraph

Note: Maureen Dowd is on book leave. Matt Miller, a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress and the author of "The 2 Percent Solution," is a guest columnist. He can be reached at [email protected].

Is persuasion dead? And if so, does it matter?

The significance of this query goes beyond the feelings of futility I'll suffer if it turns out I've wasted my life on work that is useless. This is bigger than one writer's insecurities. Is it possible in America today to convince anyone of anything he doesn't already believe? If so, are there enough places where this mingling of minds occurs to sustain a democracy?

The signs are not good. Ninety percent of political conversation amounts to dueling "talking points." Best-selling books reinforce what folks thought when they bought them. Talk radio and opinion journals preach to the converted. Let's face it: the purpose of most political speech is not to persuade but to win, be it power, ratings, celebrity or even cash.

By contrast, marshaling a case to persuade those who start from a different position is a lost art. Honoring what's right in the other side's argument seems a superfluous thing that can only cause trouble, like an appendix. Politicos huddle with like-minded souls in opinion cocoons that seem impervious to facts.

The politicians and the press didn't kill off persuasion intentionally, of course; it's more manslaughter than murder. Persuasion just isn't relevant to delivering elections or eyeballs. Pols have figured out that to get votes you don't need to change minds. Even when they want to, modern media make it hard. They give officials seconds to make their point, ignore their ideas in favor of their poll numbers or showcase a clash of caricatures, believing this is the only way to make "debate" entertaining. Elections may turn on emotions like hope and fear anyway, but with persuasion's passing, there's no alternative.

There's only one problem: governing successfully requires influencing how people actually think. Yet when the habits of persuasion have been buried, the possibilities of leadership are interred as well. That's why Bill Clinton's case on health care could be bested by savage "Harry and Louise" ads. And why, even if George Bush's Social Security plan had been well conceived, the odds were always stacked against ambitious reform.

I'm not the only one who amid this mess wonders if he shouldn't be looking at another line of work. A top conservative thinker called recently, dejected at the sight of Ann Coulter on the cover of Time. What's the point of being substantive, he cried, when all the attention goes to the shrill?

But the embarrassing truth is that we earnest chin-strokers often get it wrong anyway. Take me. I hadn't thought much about Iraq before I read Ken Pollack's book, "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq," a platonic ideal of careful analysis meant to persuade. It worked. I was persuaded! So what should we conclude when a talent like Pollack can convince us - and then the whole thing turns out to be based on a premise (W.M.D.) that is false?

If serious efforts to get it right can lead to tragic errors, why care about a culture of persuasion at all? On one level, everyone needs a good rationalization at the core of his professional life; mine holds that the struggle to think things through, even when we fail, is redeeming.

But beyond this, the gap between the cartoon of public life that the press and political establishment often serve up and the pragmatic open-mindedness of most Americans explains why so many people tune out - and how we might get them to tune back in. Alienation is the only intelligent response to a political culture that insults our intelligence.

The resurrection of persuasion will not be easy. Politicians who've learned to survive in an unforgiving environment may not feel safe with a less scripted style. Mass media outlets where heat has always sold more than light may not believe that creatively engaging on substance can expand their audience. But if you believe that meeting our collective challenges requires greater collective understanding, we've got to persuade these folks to try.

I'm guessing Ann Coulter isn't sweating this stuff. God willing, there's something else keeping her up nights. In the meantime, like Sisyphus, those who seek a better public life have to keep rolling the rock uphill. If you've read this far, maybe you're up for the climb, too.

E-mail: [email protected]; Matt Miller writes a monthly column for Fortune. Maureen Dowd is on book leave.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 11:39 am
Quote:
The following article is from the New York Times therefore it should be accepted as the gosphel by the left. Is the art of persuasion dead? Just looking around at the pitiful partisan rhetoric on this forum, the conclusion is that yes, it is not only dead but decaying. As the author says: resurrection will not be easy and that alienation is the only possible reaction to the fanaticism of both the left and the right.

The fact remains......the author poses a serious question which deserves an attempt to present a serious discussion even though the author contributes to the partisanship by referencing Ann Coulter to the exclusion of those on the left who also insult our intelligence such as Al Franken and Howard Dean

You attempt to start a serious discussion by insulting in your first sentence? I guess you proved the author correct before I even read his article. I don't know of anyone on the left that considers the NYTimes to be "gospel". It is a pretty good source of news but hardly gospel and this is not news. It is opinion.

You then continue your partisan take on this by claiming the author doesn't refer to Dean as if he was the left's Ann Coulter.
Yes there are people on the left that throw bombs like Coulter does but Dean is hardly one of them. I wouldn't consider Franken in the same league as Coulter either. Coulter spends most of her time calling the left traitors and supporters of terrorists. There are people on the left that do that to the right. I don't give them any more shrift than I do Coulter.

The reason the author brought up Coulter is because someone on the right was complaining about her press. Coulter and Michael Moore might raise interesting questions but I wouldn't rely on either of them to find the answers. (Was McCarthy right? Did Bush favor the Saudis over fighting terrorism?)

I think the real issue at stake here is the ability to get all the information. Persuasion usually requires that facts be provided and supported from sources that the other side can agree to accept them from.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 01:11 pm
Regarding Al Franken not being the same league as Coulter, some might consider that hilarious when in fact he got his start as a bomb thrower with this:

Amazon.com: Books: Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: By Al Franken, Jun 4, 2005.

My comment about Dean was triggered by this:

In a pointedly embarrassing interview with NBC's Tim Russert, the DNC chairman spent almost the entire program under withering attack as Russert demonstrated Dean's hypocrisy on past comments he made about abortion, his criticisms of Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and the way he has tried to explain away his party's fundraising woes since he took the DNC helm in February.

We are both demonstrating the partisanship that exists but do you really believe it is realistic to think that you and I,or JTT and I,could ever agree on the reliability of any particular source which you suggest below:

<I think the real issue at stake here is the ability to get all the information. Persuasion usually requires that facts be provided and supported from sources that the other side can agree to accept them from.>

We are merely engaging in small actions controlled by human nature......the difference being the degree of our disagreement ......some disagreements lead to war.

I won't hold my breath until one of us persuades the other but I suppose we should keep trying
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 02:36 pm
Rayban...good post topic.

As others on this board have mentioned publicly and via private messages, I think the partisan fever that almost characterizes the politics section is but a microcosm of the greater media we all support. But I would contend that it is hardly a reflection of the degree of one's personal opinions.
While the right may tacitly endorse Limbaugh or Coulter, I'm sure they feel alienated by them at the same time...just as I take one part Michael Moore with five parts of reality--at a minimum. I think many of us could and would meet somewhere down the middle of the extremes if the ideological war was not currently being waged by an administration who continuously feeds us one part of their reality, and the rest of the world provides us with five parts of reality.
In this information age it's becoming increasingly difficult to propagandize wars, economics, foreign and domestic policies without some rogue reporter or blog picking up on it and negating governement supported falsehoods.


You ask
" ...do you really believe it is realistic to think that you and I,or JTT and I,could ever agree on the reliability of any particular source.....

If the answer is no, why not?
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 02:51 pm
candidone1 wrote:

.
You ask
" ...do you really believe it is realistic to think that you and I,or JTT and I,could ever agree on the reliability of any particular source.....

If the answer is no, why not?


Good question and it deserves a serious answer ......... there are many factors so I must think about it.......it may be tomorrow before I get back
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 03:10 pm
OK.

For me, this hits more to the issue of can we bridge this ideological gap than can we be persuaded.
We are being persuaded. It's that simple.
You to/by the (moderate/extreme?) right, me to/by the (moderate/extreme?) left.
Is there any way we can be persuaded to believe that there is in fact an objective reality that lies beyond our grasp...that perhaps brings our beliefs closer to one another rather than driving a spike deeper into the philosophical terra firma upon which we stand?
McG provides us with compelling positive news stories in Iraq, which are then completely contradicted by BVT or Cycloptichorn. Who's right and who's wrong?
We are innundated with conflicting realities and we choose to accept the one that we find most persuasive vis a vis our own idealistic worldview. In the past, we were able to trust what the goverenment told us because we believed they were looking out for our interests. But in the post Nixon era it seems as though the government has lost it's credibility as a reliable news source and as a credible agency.


At any rate...I await your response.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 05:16 pm
rayban1 wrote:
Regarding Al Franken not being the same league as Coulter, some might consider that hilarious when in fact he got his start as a bomb thrower with this:

Amazon.com: Books: Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: By Al Franken, Jun 4, 2005.
Obviously you haven't read it or you wouldn't claim he is throwing bombs at the political right in the book. Franken takes specific people and instances and points out the lies. Not the same as Coulter calling "ALL liberals" traitors. But neither here or there. Only pointing out your starting point so we can hopefully try to find common ground.
Quote:

My comment about Dean was triggered by this:

In a pointedly embarrassing interview with NBC's Tim Russert, the DNC chairman spent almost the entire program under withering attack as Russert demonstrated Dean's hypocrisy on past comments he made about abortion, his criticisms of Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and the way he has tried to explain away his party's fundraising woes since he took the DNC helm in February.
Haven't seen it. Don't trust the obvious political spin on the comments made here. "pointedly embarrassing"? Your words or some RW spinmiester?
Quote:

We are both demonstrating the partisanship that exists but do you really believe it is realistic to think that you and I,or JTT and I,could ever agree on the reliability of any particular source which you suggest below:

<I think the real issue at stake here is the ability to get all the information. Persuasion usually requires that facts be provided and supported from sources that the other side can agree to accept them from.>

We are merely engaging in small actions controlled by human nature......the difference being the degree of our disagreement ......some disagreements lead to war.

I won't hold my breath until one of us persuades the other but I suppose we should keep trying


My point here was that we shouldn't just rely on partisan sources for our facts. You appear to not trust the NYTimes but what if I use the NYTimes and then you check out the facts from another source. Then we can check our facts against each other and find more sources. Main stream media is for the most part at least trying to be honest and it is easy to pick out the facts from other commentary. The key is to find sources that we can both trust and agree are telling the truth, whether it is one source or 15 that all say the same basic thing.

The other thing is to try to create some standards for judging. If we don't have the same standards then we can never persuade each other.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 05:32 pm
candidone1 wrote:
OK.

For me, this hits more to the issue of can we bridge this ideological gap than can we be persuaded.
We are being persuaded. It's that simple.
You to/by the (moderate/extreme?) right, me to/by the (moderate/extreme?) left.
Is there any way we can be persuaded to believe that there is in fact an objective reality that lies beyond our grasp...that perhaps brings our beliefs closer to one another rather than driving a spike deeper into the philosophical terra firma upon which we stand?
McG provides us with compelling positive news stories in Iraq, which are then completely contradicted by BVT or Cycloptichorn. Who's right and who's wrong?
We are innundated with conflicting realities and we choose to accept the one that we find most persuasive vis a vis our own idealistic worldview. In the past, we were able to trust what the goverenment told us because we believed they were looking out for our interests. But in the post Nixon era it seems as though the government has lost it's credibility as a reliable news source and as a credible agency.


At any rate...I await your response.

I don't know that the stories contradict each other. Rather it is the spin about what they mean. Is everything going well in Iraq because of the positive stories or is everything a mess because of the negative stories? That is spin.

What it comes down to is trying to be selective in facts in order to support a given world view. I think the key to persuasion is that everyone must accept facts that have been shown to be fact. Yes, good things are happening in Iraq but bad things are also happening. Neither side can say it is all good or all bad. We can choose to concentrate on the good or the bad but we can't pretend that the other facts don't exist.

That is where it comes down to criteria for judging what is happening. If more people are dying this month than last month is that good or bad? If it is good then what criteria makes it good? The problem is when the criteria used to judge is changed to make the facts fit into a preconcieved outcome.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 08:27 am
Candidone and Parados;

Before I begin, I thank you for your penetrating and thoughtful responses.


I have read your responses carefully and you both are obviously fed up with the partisan rhetoric which widens the ideological gap that you speak of Candide.
I found a refreshing willingness to recognize the problem and then to express a desire to do something about it.....in both your responses. I also found myself agreeing with most of what each of you had to say.....including Parado's criticism of my comments regarding Franken and Dean. You nailed me to the wall!

What I found lacking in both your responses was any clear suggestions about how we go about bridging the ideological gap and/or actually being more persuasive. Parados, you mentioned clearly defined criteria for judging the validity of information which is essential to forming valid conclusions. You are absolutely correct of course and this requirement is constantly pointed out by those who want proof to support an assertion or allegation. However, in most cases, it quickly becomes clear that the person wanting the sources does not want it to perhaps learn something.......they want it to challenge the validity of the source as being partisan, biased or just plain unqualified. From there the discussion deteriorates into ad hominems being hurled in both directions.
The resulting poisonous atmosphere merely widens the gap further and further.

It is this poisonous atmosphere which I wish to address. First, I think you would both agree that nothing can be learned and no persuasion can take place if any poster is not given some immediate respect by acknowledging at least a portion of of his/her proposition. There are common courtesy rules for civil discourse which are rarely if ever observed on this political forum..........common courtesy that you would always display if you were face to face.....eyeball to eyeball. I hasten to add that I am as guilty as anyone here and if I overstate the atmosphere being poisonous, it is at the very least confrontational which most people find intimidating.

There are rare occasions when a handfull of participants are able to engage in a productive exchange of ideas and opinions but are often forced to ignore the frequent sniper shots from those who seem to enjoy destroying any kind of productive discussion. At this point I would greatly appreciate your agreement or disagreement and if you agree, some suggestions about the best way to police ourselves and to not wait for a moderator to do our dirty work.

I may be getting ahead of myself here but I wish to emphasize that no learning can take place in a poisonous atmosphere. The same can be said for something else that is absolutely essential........mutual respect. You can say that one must earn respect. That is true but it should always be extended until such time as it becomes obvious to all that one person just does not belong in a conversation with civilized persons. Here again please offer your suggestions of how to handle this situation.

At this point I need your feedback before proceeding as I may have overstepped the bounds of good judgement by criticizing elements of civil discussion which are self evident but beyond anyone's control.

At the very least I think it is safe to say that we should make a concentrated attempt to persuade all participants here to avoid making destructive comments......that comment should draw a few snickers! Hell, I even laughed at it myself Laughing
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 01:10 pm
No, you can't agree.
candidone1 wrote:

.
You ask
" ...do you really believe it is realistic to think that you and I,or JTT and I,could ever agree on the reliability of any particular source.....

If the answer is no, why not?


I don't know the folks you mention, but honestly, no, you probably can't. Persuasion is something that is used for the middle of the pack. You aren't trying to persuade each other, you are trying to persuade me. If you are at the extreme end of the curve, you will almost never budge. You see a lot more extremists on-line than in real life. Many posters make no pretense at having a rational discussion related to facts and principles. (Like I said, I haven't followed your posts and my comments are related to the larger community in general.) I do enjoy this forum since the flaming is under control and I read a lot more than I post. From those trying to persuade, I have obtained a number of good links and learned about a lot of topics. Several of you have persuaded me. Will you persuade each other? Doubt it.

One a slightly different tack, do the over the top comments damage your credibility? Absolutely. Your slams at the front of this thread made me more leery of your comments in general. You sounded like one of those extremists who can't start a post without flaming. Too bad since the topic is such a good one.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 01:24 pm
And then, there is the question of what the intent of a poster is: persuasion? Or something else?

I never really try to persuade anyone, since I don't really care if some people on the internets agree with me, other than in the most arbitrary sense. I try to hone my arguments and have fun while staying informed on other's opinions of modern events.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 01:58 pm
Re: No, you can't agree.
engineer wrote:

One a slightly different tack, do the over the top comments damage your credibility? Absolutely. Your slams at the front of this thread made me more leery of your comments in general. You sounded like one of those extremists who can't start a post without flaming. Too bad since the topic is such a good one.


Good post Engineer:

Yes, Parados has already raked me over the coals for the same thing......if I know there is someone out there who is interested in having a serious discussion you won't see any more of that from me. I can assure you I am not an extremist.......I detest extremists from either side.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 02:45 pm
ray,

I certainly didn't intend to make you sit on the coals for a long period of time.

Perhaps the question should be, "can we come to a consensus?" rather than "can I persuade you?" Certainly the idea that I can make you think exactly like I do is preposterous. Perhaps it needs to be "I can make you see that I have a valid viewpoint."

On A2K there are lots of different styles. Some of them are attempts to be reasonable. Some are nothing more than flaming. We all fall into the trap of getting frustrated (at least I do) when people fail to see our point. (nimh accused me of being snotty at times which is entirely valid. I now try to at least reread my posts and eliminate some of that before posting.)

Your point about people asking for sources not to confirm facts but just to be cantankerous is a good one. This leads back to my comment about sources. We need to come to some agreement on what kinds of sources are acceptable. I think it can be fairly obvious. Reputable news sources as news reports are a good place to start. Be wary of using opinion pieces, they might contain facts but if they do the facts should be able to be found elsewhere. Partisan reports should be avoided if at all possible.

Which leads to - we need some agreed upon rules to even try to get the other side to agree with us.

Without those rules we can't police ourselves like you suggest. It is much easier to point to a rule and how you broke it than to "deteriorate into name calling." The key is the rules have to apply to both sides. (Some here demand the other side have higher standards than they feel they have to live up to.) There will always be areas of disagreement in those rules but some of it should be patently obvious.

As to how to achieve what you, I, and others want? Well, I guess that is why you started this thread. Because this is a written media its not like we have to follow Roberts rules of order for all to be heard but perhaps there are some things there that should be looked at from a civility standpoint.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 05:46 pm
parados wrote:

ray,

I certainly didn't intend to make you sit on the coals for a long period of time.

Perhaps the question should be, "can we come to a consensus?" rather than "can I persuade you?" Certainly the idea that I can make you think exactly like I do is preposterous. Perhaps it needs to be "I can make you see that I have a valid viewpoint."


We can all come to this consensus:
The more you try to tell someone how to think, act, or live, the less likely they are to abide by your suggestions.
I have found throughout this board a great number of members who seem to think that they are not only correct, but correct in all instances and under all circumstances. They feel as though they have been given the great gift of absolute knowledge, and we are merely naive or ignorant students awaiting their enlightenment--or just too daft to pick up what they're layin' down.
I'm not afraid to say that I don't know, or to retract statements which have been revealed as patently false, or simply misguided. Others will fight it to the death, knowing damn well they haven't got a leg to stand on.

parados wrote:

On A2K there are lots of different styles. Some of them are attempts to be reasonable. Some are nothing more than flaming. We all fall into the trap of getting frustrated (at least I do) when people fail to see our point. (nimh accused me of being snotty at times which is entirely valid. I now try to at least reread my posts and eliminate some of that before posting.)


You hit on something important here:
"We all fall into the trap of getting frustrated (at least I do) when people fail to see our point.
I'm not sure many people here are concerned with absorbing the point of another members perspective or opinion. Many here need to be right, "to hell with your point."

parados wrote:

Your point about people asking for sources not to confirm facts but just to be cantankerous is a good one. This leads back to my comment about sources. We need to come to some agreement on what kinds of sources are acceptable. I think it can be fairly obvious. Reputable news sources as news reports are a good place to start. Be wary of using opinion pieces, they might contain facts but if they do the facts should be able to be found elsewhere. Partisan reports should be avoided if at all possibl

Which leads to - we need some agreed upon rules to even try to get the other side to agree with us.

Without those rules we can't police ourselves like you suggest. It is much easier to point to a rule and how you broke it than to "deteriorate into name calling." The key is the rules have to apply to both sides. (Some here demand the other side have higher standards than they feel they have to live up to.) There will always be areas of disagreement in those rules but some of it should be patently obvious.


I got into this with another member late last week. They argued that my posts tend "to take a partisan stance, and to be accusatory of a partisan stance on the part of others."
Well, welcome to A2K. I was taught that in my lurking days by that very member--and others similar to them.
It seems that there are some memebs who hold themselves to a different standard than they expect of others. I think this double standard prevents both persuasian and consensus building.

How do we fix it?
Again, I have nothing yet to offer.
I'll see what else comes up.
0 Replies
 
 

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