Can Atheists learn to speak Theist?

@vikorr,

Yes!

I have been most critical of LivingLava's posts when they are hypocritical. When he is pushing Christianity at the same time he is pushing cruelty toward immigrants, it is frustrating.

Jesus talked about compassion, mercy and forgiveness. What we see in LivingLava's posts is anger, fear and harshness. He likes to talk about the drug trade, but he even has that wrong. Jesus would be worried about helping families and helping them get out of their situation. I have never once seen LivingLava offer any way to takes these families out of poverty.

What he is selling isn't really Christianity.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

You avoid through not admitting. Just come out and say it "I believe that babies are born sinful". If you can't say it, then there is nothing to discuss, because you would be disagreeing with the common Christian consensus, which is fine.

If you can explain to me what you understand as 'sin,' then I can tell you whether babies are born with that particular sin or not based on my understanding of babies.

In general, it sounds like you are referencing the idea of original sin and its transmission from Adam & Eve to Cain and Able and further generations. Belief in original sin is common to all Judeo-Christian religions, so Idk why you are debating Christianity specifically on that issue. What is specific to Christianity is the salvation from sin through crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

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Failure is sin

Care to quote where in the bible this is taught? There are many, many examples of sin. I read it for over 15 years. I can't think of one where it says that just failure, fullstop, is sin.[/quote]
The word itself, 'sin,' is sometimes explained as being derived from an old Greek word that refers to a marksman 'missing the mark.' It is a general word with a general meaning, therefore, prior to any specific philosophical claims made about it in reference to the Bible or any other particular religious scripture. When you understand it as a general word, 'failure' is just a synonym to explain what it means generally. In other words, everything you do that aligns with God's will of what's true and right (however you determine what God's will is) is virtue and anything that fails to achieve success in submitting to God's will is sin/failure/missing-the-mark. I.e. sinning is failing to succeed at accurately doing right by God.

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but you won't understand the problem of not being able to be saved by good works and deeds.
I understand the concept...and it had nothing to do with what I was writing about, which is why I said it wasn't related to what I wrote about. What I wrote about, was your perception of the suspect nature (in your eyes) of people being genuinely decent, kind, generous, compassionate people...who don't believe in God. You continue to avoid that non-christians can be genuinely good people.

Of course non-Christians can be genuinely good people with good hearts. Everyone has the potential for good in them and you would be hard pressed to find a person so evil/bad that nothing they do is good in the least. Still, no one is perfect and thus everyone is a sinner to some degree or other, and that's why Christianity teaches salvation and redemption from sin and not just honoring the good in people. Honoring goodness can't save you from sin any more than doing good deeds despite your other sins can. If you are a thief, for example, you can do a lot of good deeds but those can't erase your sin of stealing. For that you need forgiveness, and you can't earn that forgiveness by doing good deeds. That is why Martin Luther added 'sola fide' to his translation of the Bible.

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And apparently you also think everything must be about reward, or pride, or recognition or some other external factor...when some people are genuinely good because they are genuinely good...not because they get external reward or recognition or salvation or anything else...but just because they are genuinely good, inside.

How could you do good for reward or otherwise unless you had the potential for genuine goodness inside? Still, no one is totally good inside without the potential for sin as well. Denying sin is sin in and of itself, i.e. because it's a lie. We are inherently sinners in need of salvation. Christianity and the other Judeo-Christian religions are right about that. If you can't see how that is true, I think you're in denial because surely you can't believe that any human is completely devoid of sin.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

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everyone in this thread and others who is demonizing me for failing to abandon religion.
Seems I missed this, and it's really worth replying to - because this isn't what is happening, much. Izzy stated how he doesn't mindn what people believe (with qualifications). Max is similar. I'm similar, and probably have more time for religion than they. These are your main responders...and you think they are trying to demonise you to leave your religion, which isn't the case (it's more about your use of what you call logic). You appear to think the posts 'against' you are born of some jealousy or evil or some other nefarious corruptness....

...when people are frustrated with your brainwashed mind's penchant for insisting you are correct while avoiding logic, avoiding inconsistencies in your beliefs, engaging in hypocrisy, continually reading phrases out of context, disagreeing with people while not realising you are agreeing with them, disagreeing with people then providing 'reasons' unrelated to what you 'disagree with', and basically lying to yourself.

If you think you can engage in such behaviour while maintaining absolute certainty, and that people won't call out those that engage in such behaviour on a written forum, then you don't understand forums very well.

You just attack me in any way you can whenever I fail to validate your hedonistic values. You don't talk about me being brainwashed etc. until you mention your values and I respond with my honest assessment of them. Would you rather I lie and say that I believe hedonism to be a virtue?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I have been most critical of LivingLava's posts when they are hypocritical. When he is pushing Christianity at the same time he is pushing cruelty toward immigrants, it is frustrating.

Jesus talked about compassion, mercy and forgiveness. What we see in LivingLava's posts is anger, fear and harshness. He likes to talk about the drug trade, but he even has that wrong. Jesus would be worried about helping families and helping them get out of their situation. I have never once seen LivingLava offer any way to takes these families out of poverty.

What he is selling isn't really Christianity.

How do you propose to liberate people and their families from getting caught up in drug markets, either the supply or demand side?

What part of you thinks it is good to leave people enslaved to drugs and their lords, from either side of the equation, supply or demand?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

In the specific case you are describing, where a family is being threatened by drug lords, they should be granted political asylum in the US. That is exactly the situation that political asylum is for.

What do you think should happen to them?

I have never once heard you talk about compassion, or love or treating people in trouble as human beings.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

In the specific case you are describing, where a family is being threatened by drug lords, they should be granted political asylum in the US. That is exactly the situation that political asylum is for.

Ideally, yes; but what do you do about the fact that people can be coached into seeking political asylum as part of a tactical strategy to undermine resistance to the people/interests they are serving?

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What do you think should happen to them?

The people abusing/exploiting them should stop and they should find non-exploitative employment wherever they can; i.e. wherever they can maintain their health and prosper in a way that is sustainable for themselves and the planet more generally.

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I have never once heard you talk about compassion, or love or treating people in trouble as human beings.

That's a given. We are all God's children. When we discipline and rebuke each others' sins, it should be as loving brothers and sisters. We are supposed to be 'our brother's keeper,' meaning we are supposed to honor each other as children of God and treat each other as we would be treated, including in how we discipline and rebuke.

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@livinglava,

Why won't you answer the question, who was born on December 25th?

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@livinglava,

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The people abusing/exploiting them should stop and they should find non-exploitative employment wherever they can; i.e. wherever they can maintain their health and prosper in a way that is sustainable for themselves and the planet more generally.

It is not just the cruelty in your words... it is the fact that you are taking zero responsibility. Your religion doesn't spur you to action. You use it to absolve yourself of any responsibility for these people.

If someone was getting beat up. Would you walk by and say "that guy should really stop" and "when they finish getting beat up, they should figure out a way to get to a hospital and heal their wounds".

You should read the Good Samaritan. You are acting like the Pharisee in that story.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

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The people abusing/exploiting them should stop and they should find non-exploitative employment wherever they can; i.e. wherever they can maintain their health and prosper in a way that is sustainable for themselves and the planet more generally.

It is not just the cruelty in your words... it is the fact that you are taking zero responsibility. Your religion doesn't spur you to action. You use it to absolve yourself of any responsibility for these people.

When you say, "it's not just the cruelty in your words," that implies I said something cruel. What do you was cruel in anything I said?

As for me personally taking responsibility for other people, what does that even mean when it comes to people who are being abused and exploited by others? If a bully is taking someone's money every day and you don't give them more money to give to the bully, are you responsible for the suffering being caused by the bully exploiting the victim? Please explain.

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If someone was getting beat up. Would you walk by and say "that guy should really stop" and "when they finish getting beat up, they should figure out a way to get to a hospital and heal their wounds".

I could call the police, but if the bully is stronger than I am, all I'm going to achieve by jumping into the fight is to get myself beat up along with the victim.

There are some instances in this world where you are powerless to help a situation. You can pray, but that doesn't mean the situation is going to change. Sometimes all we have is faith in spiritual deliverance, e.g. that God will take mercy on our souls when they finally succumb to death at the hands of the cruelest worldly powers.

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@livinglava,

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The word itself, 'sin,' is sometimes explained as being derived from an old Greek word that refers to a marksman 'missing the mark.' It is a general word with a general meaning,

So 'sometimes derived'...has lead to your certainty. And that certainty has existed even with the bible providing many, many specific examples...none of which have equated sin to just failure.

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sinning is failing to succeed at accurately doing right by God.

So we have had an entire conversation about you using Sin to mean just failure....with you defending such use....And now you go and requalify it to define it as a specific type of failure - once you've no longer the need to use the 'just failure' interpretation to excuse your beliefs.

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@livinglava,

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whenever I fail to validate your hedonistic values.

You have no idea what my values are. And you'd probably be surprised at just how much we have in common.

I'm presuming you've engaged in a failure of logic once again, and gone 'because he criticises me, he must believe the opposite'? And then you've taken the extreme opposite?

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You just attack me in any way you can whenever....

you:
- fail to engage in logic
- avoid evidence
- engage in hypocrisy
- become dishonest
- take things out of context
- and similar behaviours resulting in poor logic

You'll find that pattern running through every post I've criticised you - you won't be able to quote otherwise, and I even do the right thing and explain those criticism each time (unless I'm summarising, or talking to someone else about your issues).

...so yep, that really sounds like a person desperate to maintain their 'hedonistic' beliefs, or lifestyles...or some other nonsense motivation you've created in your head to once again justify to yourself what goes on in the world around you.

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Livinglava said “Humans are naturally sinful. That is a fundamental confession in Christianity. Once you accept that humans are imperfect sinners, you can begin the hard uphill struggle to accept forgiveness and reform.

Vikorr said ”Neither God, nor forgiveness is necessary to the desire, or work, to better oneself (in any form, whether morally, emotionally, spiritually, knowledge, or skillwise). Accepting that we as humans have flaws and are far from perfect is a fine start to the journey to better oneself.

Livinglava said “If you don't think forgiveness is necessary, then you don't understand the concept of sin and atonement”

Livinglava later said “Until you come to terms with sin, you are caught in the sin of pride/ego.”

Vikorr said “This is purely your dogma speaking. There are many kind, humble people with genuine generosity of spirit who have never considered sin. Are you sure your belief doesn't come from a place of pride /ego in your righteousness?”

Livinglava went on to defend his position before eventually going:

“Of course non-Christians can be genuinely good people with good hearts.”

Unfortunately, he then went on to qualify it in the same post, once again with:

Everyone has the potential for good in them and you would be hard pressed to find a person so evil/bad that nothing they do is good in the least. Still, no one is perfect and thus everyone is a sinner to some degree or other, and that's why Christianity teaches salvation and redemption from sin and not just honoring the good in people. Honoring goodness can't save you from sin any more than doing good deeds despite your other sins can. If you are a thief, for example, you can do a lot of good deeds but those can't erase your sin of stealing. For that you need forgiveness, and you can't earn that forgiveness by doing good deeds. That is why Martin Luther added 'sola fide' to his translation of the Bible.

Essentially giving ground while still maintaining a more vague stance on the suspect nature relating to whether or not non-christians can be genuinely good people…and then trying to divert attention further away by saying it’s irrelevant because x, y, z.

So living, can non-christians be genuinely compassionate, honest, loving, joyful, generous, trustworthy, or kind people…just because they are, and that’s the type of people they wish to be? For themselves, rather than any form of reward?

Do they, as you say, suffer from the sin of pride/ego, by working ever more towards being better people, for themselves, who they see themselves being…not for external reward…but because that’s the type of person they want to be?

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@vikorr,

Quite frankly, this was one of the sticking points for me when I used to be a Christian. That I saw many genuinely good people out in the world, while Christianity had this concept that made their goodness suspect...but that suspicion is just in the heads of Christians that hold that suspicion. If a person has genuine compassion, kindness etc...then they have genuine compassion, kindness etc, religious or not.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Essentially giving ground while still maintaining a more vague stance on the suspect nature relating to whether or not non-christians can be genuinely good people…and then trying to divert attention further away by saying it’s irrelevant because x, y, z.

So living, can non-christians be genuinely compassionate, honest, loving, joyful, generous, trustworthy, or kind people…just because they are, and that’s the type of people they wish to be? For themselves, rather than any form of reward?

Do they, as you say, suffer from the sin of pride/ego, by working ever more towards being better people, for themselves, who they see themselves being…not for external reward…but because that’s the type of person they want to be?

What you paraphrase above as, "x, y, z" is salvation from sin. You don't understand it so you deem it irrelevant. I think you for reposting a summation of what I've said because I think it is a pretty good explanation of what Martin Luther meant when he added 'sola fide' to his translation of the Bible. I don't think I can say any more to make you understand. If all you're concerned about is being recognized as a good person and doing it not for a reward but for intrinsic will to goodness, then I'm sure you will succeed in that.

I just can't tell you that I think it will ultimately save your soul, because whatever sins you fail to atone for will cost you spiritually. For millennia people have understood the impossibility of atoning for all sins and thus perfecting this imperfect world. Thankfully there is salvation through Christ for those who accept it. If you don't, however, then you don't; but don't say that no one ever reached out to you with the good news of eternal life in Christ.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quite frankly, this was one of the sticking points for me when I used to be a Christian. That I saw many genuinely good people out in the world, while Christianity had this concept that made their goodness suspect...but that suspicion is just in the heads of Christians that hold that suspicion. If a person has genuine compassion, kindness etc...then they have genuine compassion, kindness etc, religious or not.

It seems you never realized what ultimate forgiveness/salvation through Christ really means. It's not about being recognized as a good person. It's about being forgiven for sin by confessing and repenting. You can do all the good deeds in the world to try to earn salvation from the sins that you fail to confess and repent, but that won't work. There is only one path to total salvation.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

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What you paraphrase above as, "x, y, z" is salvation from sin. You don't understand it so you deem it irrelevant.

Unecessary would be more accurate. I see no need for external reward (ie Heaven) in order to seek to better myself.

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If all you're concerned about is being recognized as a good person and doing it not for a reward but for intrinsic will to goodness, then I'm sure you will succeed in that.

Much better

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I just can't tell you that I think it will ultimately save your soul

Again, I see this as unnecessary.

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because whatever sins you fail to atone for will cost you spiritually

There are different paths to spiritual growth than 'God's forgiveness for sin'...even if you don't believe that.

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but don't say that no one ever reached out to you with the good news of eternal life in Christ.

And why would I ever engage in such dishonesty? Am I not responsible for my own decisions? And the consequences of such decisions?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

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It seems you never realized what ultimate forgiveness/salvation through Christ really means. It's not about being recognized as a good person.

Once again taking things out of context of the whole - which relates to christian suspicion of the genuine goodness of non-christians. Do posters really need to restate the whole context for you to get what a conversation is about?

By the way - you are only quoting one half of the Christian belief, because this half doesn't allow one to go out and do whatever they like. The other half relates to them living in a right way by God (ie being good), but that goodness alone can't save you. There are two halves in the Christian realm.

-----------------

And I've consistently stated that the type of people I talked about as being genuinely kind, compassionate etc, have not done so for reward (which includes recognition by others) but because that's who they want to be, inside...so please stop distorting what I say by throwing words implying 'for recognition' and suchlike in.

Your suspicion of non-christians continues to shine through. But you could change that.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
What you paraphrase above as, "x, y, z" is salvation from sin. You don't understand it so you deem it irrelevant.
Unecessary would be more accurate. I see no need for external reward (ie Heaven) in order to seek to better myself.

Heaven is not an external reward. It is a spiritual state. We are spiritual beings. Inner peace/joy/bliss while living is no different from heaven, except heaven is permanent whereas everything about this world and its materiality is impermanent. Study Buddhism for more on this issue.

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If all you're concerned about is being recognized as a good person and doing it not for a reward but for intrinsic will to goodness, then I'm sure you will succeed in that.
Much better

Just don't misunderstand me as pretending like you that this is sufficient for ultimate peace and happiness.

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I just can't tell you that I think it will ultimately save your soul
Again, I see this as unnecessary.

Maybe for now, but you won't ultimately be satisfied with anything less than total salvation.

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because whatever sins you fail to atone for will cost you spiritually
There are different paths to spiritual growth than 'God's forgiveness for sin'...even if you don't believe that.

Of course. Everything is growth. Even cancer is a form of growth.

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but don't say that no one ever reached out to you with the good news of eternal life in Christ.
And why would I ever engage in such dishonesty? Am I not responsible for my own decisions? And the consequences of such decisions?

[/quote]
Here's the problem with you rejecting salvation in Christ: you will not accept the lot of your choosing gracefully. You will continue to post angry responses to things you don't understand. You act as if you are satisfied with 'spiritual growth' absent total salvation, but then what is it the causes you to continue to be angry and combative except the struggle with sin?

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

By the way - you are only quoting one half of the Christian belief, because this half doesn't allow one to go out and do whatever they like. The other half relates to them living in a right way by God (ie being good), but that goodness alone can't save you. There are two halves in the Christian realm.

Sanctification occurs once you have accepted salvation. "Living in a right way by God," is what you strive to do in gratitude for salvation from sin, but you can't assume you are going to become totally perfect in this life. We are living in grace and striving to honor God's forgiveness and mercy, but that doesn't mean we won't continue to make mistakes and thus remain in need of grace and forgiveness.

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And I've consistently stated that the type of people I talked about as being genuinely kind, compassionate etc, have not done so for reward (which includes recognition by others) but because that's who they want to be, inside...so please stop distorting what I say by throwing words implying 'for recognition' and suchlike in.

Your suspicion of non-christians continues to shine through. But you could change that.

I don't have to have faith in non-Christians any more than I have to have faith in anything else of this world. My faith lies in God, not this world, which is by nature corrupt.

Why do you seek honor for non-Christians except as a reward for good behavior? You claim it's not about external rewards, but what is honor to you except an external reward?

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Sanctification occurs once you have accepted salvation.

And you "accepted salvation" by taking the words of Christ and wiping your arse on them. I'm sure you'll get your eternal reward.

1 Reply

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