7
   

"Why don't they go back..."

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 12:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
I do believe that some Americans hate this country.

Back up your opinion with facts....

Okay. After al-Shabab killed 71 people at a shopping mall in Kenya in 2013, Omar said America should take responsibility. “Nobody wants to take accountability of how these are byproducts of the actions of our involvement in other people’s affairs.”

Also, she seemed to blame America for the situation in Venezuela, saying, “A lot of the policies that we’ve put in place has [sic] kind of helped lead the devastation in Venezuela.”
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 05:19 am
@Brandon9000,
America is responsible for the situation in Venezuela, it's been attacking the country ever since Chavez was elected.

America should take responsibility for its actions, if American diplomats hadn't been stupid enough to give Saddam Hussein the green light he would never have invaded Kuwait and there would have been no need to station "infidel" troops in the "holiest land on Earth."

You really need to look at what's going on in the World before you start attacking those who do have an understanding.
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 07:40 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
I thought "The thing is, it's tearing the country apart by not allowing creative differences to enhance or expand us as a whole population," was pretty funny. Was it conservatives who blocked streets, smashed windows, and set fires at Clinton and Sanders campaign rallies or liberals who did that at numerous Trump campaign rallies? Is it conservative students who riot violently when liberal guests are going to speak at their college or liberal students who do it when conservatives are going to speak? I can show you numerous YouTube videos of people removing "Trump for president" signs. Can you show me one of someone removing a Clinton or Sanders for president sign?


I'm not going to deny any of those things didn't happen. Yet again, you look at the result, not the cause. Rallies to promote discrimination of people of color are of course going to cause a disturbance. Rallies that promote discrimination against LBGTQIA people are, of course, going to cause a disturbance. And rallies to promote violence towards those who disagree with those ideals are, in fact, prone to counter protest. You call it Free Speech, I call it inciting riots.

You want to say it's the Left who causes the violence. I wholeheartedly disagree. I can show you a slew of YouTube videos that show these rallies chanting "White is Right!" and "Trump That Bitch," "Whore," "Tramp," "Kill Them All" that seem to escape your attention. Rallies that carry torches reminiscent to KKK marches, swastikas, religious signs that tell people they'll burn in Hell because they love someone who is the same gender as them.

Is it right to use violence? No, of course not.

But you certainly deny the Truth of who started the fight. It makes all the difference. Acknowledge that.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 10:31 am
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
I thought "The thing is, it's tearing the country apart by not allowing creative differences to enhance or expand us as a whole population," was pretty funny. Was it conservatives who blocked streets, smashed windows, and set fires at Clinton and Sanders campaign rallies or liberals who did that at numerous Trump campaign rallies? Is it conservative students who riot violently when liberal guests are going to speak at their college or liberal students who do it when conservatives are going to speak? I can show you numerous YouTube videos of people removing "Trump for president" signs. Can you show me one of someone removing a Clinton or Sanders for president sign?


I'm not going to deny any of those things didn't happen. Yet again, you look at the result, not the cause. Rallies to promote discrimination of people of color are of course going to cause a disturbance. Rallies that promote discrimination against LBGTQIA people are, of course, going to cause a disturbance. And rallies to promote violence towards those who disagree with those ideals are, in fact, prone to counter protest. You call it Free Speech, I call it inciting riots.

You want to say it's the Left who causes the violence. I wholeheartedly disagree. I can show you a slew of YouTube videos that show these rallies chanting "White is Right!" and "Trump That Bitch," "Whore," "Tramp," "Kill Them All" that seem to escape your attention. Rallies that carry torches reminiscent to KKK marches, swastikas, religious signs that tell people they'll burn in Hell because they love someone who is the same gender as them.

Is it right to use violence? No, of course not.

But you certainly deny the Truth of who started the fight. It makes all the difference. Acknowledge that.

What this comes down to is do you want to have a civil society where people try to talk about their differences of belief and opinion peacefully, or do you wan to have a society where certain views are met with angry/violent responses, which lead to people keeping silent about their views in public, but then acting on them in private?

Yes, of course racism and sexism are wrong; but if people avoid talking about their thinking on these topics for fear they will be branded and attacked as racists/sexists, then what hope is there to convince them to think differently?

In order to get people to listen to reason, you have to listen to their reasons why they think differently than you do. Once you do, you have the right to expect them to listen to reasoning that contradicts their own thinking. That is how to engage in civil democratic discourse, not by chanting and burning effigies or making threats, etc. People have to listen to and reason with each other, not just shout at each other and/or avoid facing others they disagree with.

If anything, the internet should be a place where people can safely engage each other's views without risking face-to-face conflict. For it to work, though, we have to engage in good-faith listening and reasoning with differing POVs on the internet and not just ignore/squelch anyone who expresses views we disagree with and/or dislike.

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 10:44 am
@livinglava,
Quote:

In order to get people to listen to reason, you have to listen to their reasons why they think differently than you do. Once you do, you have the right to expect them to listen to reasoning that contradicts their own thinking.
This is why your thesis will never be true. Racism and lying will always be wrong, no matter who practices it. That's why whole countries fall under the leadership of tyrants and mentally sick leaders. There's enough historical evidence for this. Look at Trump with his racism and lies, and his followers. Psychiatrists and mental health professionals have determined Trump to be "mentally unstable and dangerous," and yet, some 35 to 40% of Americans believe in his rhetoric and actions. His southern border wall is a good example of his racism and mental illness. Only people who support him can't see the danger. Hitler's Germany is another good example.
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 10:52 am
Rev. William Barber is building a new ‘moral movement’
to reach people on race.

Special correspondent Charlayne Hunter-Gault speaks with Reverend William Barber and Jonathan
Wilson-Hartgrove, co-authors of “The Third Reconstruction: How a Moral Movement is Overcoming the
Politics of Division and Fear,” about what it takes to tackle America’s racial divide.

Published June 23, 2017


cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 12:43 pm
@Real Music,
It's a useless "battle." The Trumps of this world has too many racists and ignorant people. Those numbers will not be be reduced, but will increase. After all, their leader is the president of the United States of America. Germany had theirs, and America has ours.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 12:57 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
I thought "The thing is, it's tearing the country apart by not allowing creative differences to enhance or expand us as a whole population," was pretty funny. Was it conservatives who blocked streets, smashed windows, and set fires at Clinton and Sanders campaign rallies or liberals who did that at numerous Trump campaign rallies? Is it conservative students who riot violently when liberal guests are going to speak at their college or liberal students who do it when conservatives are going to speak? I can show you numerous YouTube videos of people removing "Trump for president" signs. Can you show me one of someone removing a Clinton or Sanders for president sign?


I'm not going to deny any of those things didn't happen. Yet again, you look at the result, not the cause. Rallies to promote discrimination of people of color are of course going to cause a disturbance. Rallies that promote discrimination against LBGTQIA people are, of course, going to cause a disturbance. And rallies to promote violence towards those who disagree with those ideals are, in fact, prone to counter protest. You call it Free Speech, I call it inciting riots.

You want to say it's the Left who causes the violence. I wholeheartedly disagree. I can show you a slew of YouTube videos that show these rallies chanting "White is Right!" and "Trump That Bitch," "Whore," "Tramp," "Kill Them All" that seem to escape your attention. Rallies that carry torches reminiscent to KKK marches, swastikas, religious signs that tell people they'll burn in Hell because they love someone who is the same gender as them.

Is it right to use violence? No, of course not.

But you certainly deny the Truth of who started the fight. It makes all the difference. Acknowledge that.

How about violent riots against conservative speakers who are in no way promoting violence, as in every example I gave? I dare y0u to find me one case in America in which conservative university students rioted because a liberal was going to speak. Here is one case of many, many in which liberal students rioted when a conservative was going to speak:

https://fox6now.com/2017/02/02/marquette-universitys-plan-to-host-conservative-speaker-ben-shapiro-sparks-controversy-on-campus/
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 01:29 pm
@Brandon9000,
Universities? "Send her back, send her back, send her back..." to an American citizen. Blind racism and hatred is not what our founding fathers wished for our country. The Declaration of Independence was their dream for the future of this country. Instead, we got Donald Trump, and his hateful, ignorant, followers.
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2019 01:40 pm
@Brandon9000,
Data shows a surprising campus free speech problem: left-wingers being fired for their opinions
Does “political correctness” really crush conservative speech on campus? The data suggests no.

By Zack [email protected]@vox.com Aug 3, 2018, 9:30am

The American college campus, we are led to believe, is a dangerous place: If you say what you really think, particularly as a conservative, a mob of young social justice warriors will come for your faculty position or invitation to speak on campus. Entire books and online magazines are premised on the idea that political correctness is sweeping the American university, threatening both higher education and the broader right to free speech.

But a data analysis from March by the director of Georgetown University’s Free Speech Project suggests that this “crisis” is more than a little overblown. There have been relatively few incidents of speech being squelched on college campuses, and there’s in fact limited evidence that conservatives are being unfairly targeted.

The Free Speech Project’s researchers had cataloged more than 90 incidents since 2016 that fit their criteria for a person’s free speech rights being threatened. Of those 90, about two-thirds took place on college campuses. These incidents range from a speaker being disinvited to a faculty member being fired over allegedly offensive comments to a student-run play being canceled over concerns it would offend.

The raw numbers here should already raise questions about the so-called political correctness epidemic. According to the Department of Education, there are 4,583 colleges and universities in the United States (including two- and four-year institutions). The fact that there were roughly only 60 incidents in the past two years suggests that free speech crises are extremely rare events and don’t define university life in the way that critics suggest.

Moreover, there’s a consistent pattern in the data when it comes to conservatives — one that tells a different story than you hear among free speech panickers.

“Most of the incidents where presumptively conservative speech has been interrupted or squelched in the last two or three years seem to involve the same few speakers: Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Shapiro, Charles Murray, and Ann Coulter ,” Sanford Ungar, the project’s director, writes. “In some instances, they seem to invite, and delight in, disruption.”

What Ungar is suggesting here is that the “campus free speech” crisis is somewhat manufactured. Conservative student groups invite speakers famous for offensive and racially charged speech — all of the above speakers fit that bill — in a deliberate attempt to provoke the campus left. In other words, they’re trolling. When students react by protesting or disrupting the event, the conservatives use it as proof that there’s real intolerance for conservative ideas.

The other key thing that emerges from the Georgetown data, according to Ungar, is that these protests and disruptions don’t just target the right. “Our data also include many incidents, generally less well-publicized, where lower-profile scholars, speakers, or students who could be considered to be on the left have been silenced or shut down,” he writes.

Examples include Princeton professor Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor’s commencement speech being canceled after receiving death threats for criticizing President Donald Trump and the president of Sonoma State University apologizing for allowing a black student to read a poem critical of police violence at commencement.

There’s little reason, according to Ungar, to conclude from any of this that conservative views are uniquely unwelcome on campus.

“One among many untested concepts,” he writes, “is whether the survey results would be different if conservative student groups, instead of repeatedly inviting campus visitors who have built a brand of disruption, were to sponsor serious intellectual dialogue with thinkers on the right.”

What free speech crisis?

Ungar notes that his data is preliminary and not necessarily a full or representative sample. So we can’t put too much weight on the Georgetown findings. However, it’s strikingly consistent with what other academics and free speech watchdogs have found when they looked into the issue.

Jeffrey Sachs, a political scientist at Canada’s Acadia University, put together a database of all incidents where a professor was dismissed for political speech in the United States between 2015 and 2017. Sachs’s results, published by the left-libertarian Niskanen Center, actually found that left-wing professors were more frequently dismissed for their speech than conservative ones:

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/B4P_DP65xURKy6euqGprGxHRiV4=/0x0:975x603/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:975x603):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11912851/FreeSpeech6.png

Jeffrey Sachs/Niskanen Center

The pro-free speech Foundation for Individual Rights in Education keeps a database of speaker disinvitations from campuses. It finds only a handful of disinvitations — somewhere between 20 and 42 — in every year between 2011 and 2017. The highest single-year spike, from 21 in 2015 to 42 in 2016, is mostly the work of one provocateur launching an intentionally inflammatory college tour.

“11 of the 42 disinvitations were for a single speaker: Breitbart editor and right-wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos,” FIRE’s Alex Morey writes. “His controversial ‘Dangerous Faggot Tour’ traveled to colleges across the country this year and seemed to prompt a new report of attempted censorship in some form or another each week.”

That’s not to say that there aren’t disturbing incidents on campuses. Robby Soave, an editor at the libertarian magazine Reason (and a good personal friend of mine), has unearthed some troubling examples of students and faculty tossing free speech ideals to the side.

But I keep coming back to the denominator here: There are well over 4,000 colleges and universities in the United States. And multiple attempts to catalog free speech incidents on campus, from different sources, keep coming up with numbers in the dozens. And of those dozens, a fairly large percentage of the targets are liberals, and a fairly large percentage of the others were conservative speakers who seem to have come to campus with the intent of provoking students.

It’s possible that these few incidents have a broader chilling effect: that no one is willing to advance conservative positions on campus because of Milo Yiannopoulos’s chilly reception during his speaking tour. But the mere existence of conservative campus publications across the country would strongly suggest that isn’t true. Conservative students and faculty have plenty of venues through which they can, and do, speak.

Some campus free speech critics, I suspect, aren’t operating in good faith. For them, the entire debate is a way to attack universities as hopelessly and dangerously liberal — to undermine higher education for nakedly partisan reasons.

Indeed, four Republican-controlled state governments have set up new rules for political speech in public universities in response to concerns about free speech. At least seven other state legislatures are considering doing the same, efforts that the New York Times reports are “funded in part by big-money Republican donors” in a “growing and well-organized campaign that has put academia squarely in the crosshairs of the American right.”

In Wisconsin, the strictest of these states, rules drafted by the state university’s board of regents allow students to be expelled if they are found to have disrupted the speech of other students three times.

Protecting free speech on campus by expelling students for their political activism: just what the First Amendment’s drafters intended.

Clarification: An unclear phrasing in the original piece suggested that liberal professors are at higher risk of being dismissed for political views that conservatives. The intent was to say they are more frequently dismissed for their views. A separate phrasing did not reflect the date of the original publication of Ungar’s data analysis, which was in March 2018. This piece has been updated to clarify both points.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Jul, 2019 09:06 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:

In order to get people to listen to reason, you have to listen to their reasons why they think differently than you do. Once you do, you have the right to expect them to listen to reasoning that contradicts their own thinking.
This is why your thesis will never be true. Racism and lying will always be wrong, no matter who practices it. That's why whole countries fall under the leadership of tyrants and mentally sick leaders. There's enough historical evidence for this. Look at Trump with his racism and lies, and his followers. Psychiatrists and mental health professionals have determined Trump to be "mentally unstable and dangerous," and yet, some 35 to 40% of Americans believe in his rhetoric and actions. His southern border wall is a good example of his racism and mental illness. Only people who support him can't see the danger. Hitler's Germany is another good example.

Lying derails discussion regardless. There's no point trying to discuss something if the person/people you're in discussion with are just lying to manipulate the discourse.

Racism may be wrong, but it gets tolerated in so many ways because so many people take it for granted as part of their modus operandi. How are people ever going to see, let alone question, racism if they avoid discussions they can't understand because they don't tolerate them long enough to understand them?

How many people have narrowed their understanding of racism to hate/discrimination against people of African descent and other people of color? Earlier in this thread, I posted Ayn Rand's explanation of racism as a (biologically-oriented) form of collectivism, but how many people are willing to understand collectivism as a problem more generally, and then look at how racism fits into the larger problem of collectivism?

Currently, we have a schizophrenic political culture where racism is decried, yet socialism, corporatism, and other forms of collectivism remain unquestioned and are even being promoted and expanding. Take a look at how individuals identified as African American (black) are corralled into supporting the Democratic party, gangs, and/or other collectives, such as unions, by being told that they are 'against their own people' if they exercise independent thought and choice as individuals. Such collectivism is exploiting racial identity as a basis for exercising collective/social subjugation to collective authority, but no one questions it because it's not white people doing the subjugating, or if it is they are members of the Democratic party, who are rationalizing their anti-individualism as a necessity for fighting Trump et al., i.e. 'the enemy.'

Collectivism often, if not always, rallies people together against common enemies. The enemy could be Trump or entire races/nations. Racism only became hate-oriented instead of pride-oriented because it invigorated racial pride and confidence among whites to ridicule and laugh at racial differences. Ultimately, that culture of racist ridicule that evolved into white supremacy was just a culture of collectivism that gained strength by rallying against racial difference and impurity as a common enemy. The same collective strength can and is currently being gained by resisting white supremacy, Trump, the GOP, etc. as a common enemy. Of course it is important to understand and reject the culture of white supremacy, racism, hate, etc. but turning what should be a process of enlightenment to achieve transcendence of bad culture turns into scapegoating of a certain subset of people who become identified with the negative culture and thus scapegoats just amounts to a renewal of the collective/fascist spirit as a hate-response to the old collective/fascist spirit it is reacting against.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Jul, 2019 02:04 pm
@neptuneblue,
When Trump calls someone's free speech "treasonous," it only proves how ignorant Trump really is! He's the major problem in today's politics, because there are too many Trumps in this country. https://www.vox.com/2019/5/17/18629175/trump-treason-fbi-russia
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 22 Jul, 2019 07:44 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
Data shows a surprising campus free speech problem: left-wingers being fired for their opinions
Does “political correctness” really crush conservative speech on campus? The data suggests no....

Yeah, I can see that it's not true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PSYPrE5LrQ
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Jul, 2019 07:56 pm
@Brandon9000,
Again, I don't deny that happens.

And again, he ain't normal.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jul, 2019 08:19 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

neptuneblue wrote:
Data shows a surprising campus free speech problem: left-wingers being fired for their opinions
Does “political correctness” really crush conservative speech on campus? The data suggests no....

Yeah, I can see that it's not true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PSYPrE5LrQ


Can someone explain to me why this matters?

What is wrong with supporting the free speech for anyone, without regard to political ideology?

This seems like a silly argument.
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Jul, 2019 07:25 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:

Again, I don't deny that happens.

And again, he ain't normal.

And here is yet another instance of liberals suppressing the speech of conservatives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANzNKAVghbQ

Again, I dare you to find me one single, specific, case of conservatives trying to suppress a liberal speaker on a campus.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Jul, 2019 07:29 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

neptuneblue wrote:
Data shows a surprising campus free speech problem: left-wingers being fired for their opinions
Does “political correctness” really crush conservative speech on campus? The data suggests no....

Yeah, I can see that it's not true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PSYPrE5LrQ


Can someone explain to me why this matters?

What is wrong with supporting the free speech for anyone, without regard to political ideology?

This seems like a silly argument.

That's exactly right, but if you trace my discussion back, neptuneblue suggested that it is conservatives suppressing speech of when he said,

"The thing is, it's tearing the country apart by not allowing creative differences to enhance or expand us as a whole population."

I am pointing out that it is pretty much solely liberals suppressing the free speech of conservatives.
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Jul, 2019 07:34 pm
@Brandon9000,
Really, too easy...

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/16/trump-administration-abortion-gag-rule-1593665
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Jul, 2019 07:36 pm
@Brandon9000,
And,

https://www.pharmacytimes.com/conferences/ncpa-2018/legislation-signed-into-law-prohibiting-gag-clauses-for-pharmacies
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Jul, 2019 07:40 pm
@Brandon9000,
Don't forget about this one,

https://www.globalfundforwomen.org/global-gag-rule-expanded/
0 Replies
 
 

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