Brandon9000 wrote:dyslexia wrote:the focus on this issue came about because of a series of events demonstrating substanial abuse of prisoners. we have created a history of events wherein each event is magnfied by the events preceeding it. mole hills can become mountains.
Funny thing that what the other side does - cutting the heads off of civilians, shooting prisoners in downed helicopters, and the like - which are much worse, don't have that magnifying effect. If you look the worst abuses our worst people commit, 99% of them are less severe than abuses which are rampant on the other side.
Make a note of this Brandon WE ARE NOT THE OTHER SIDE or so we keep telling the world.
makes no matter what the "other side" does, YOu appear to be saying "Hilter gassed 9 million jews/poles/gypsys and Stalin slaughtered 20 million russians so if we only gas a few dozen and maybe only slaughter a few hundred we freakin' well smell like roses" and that Brandon is the logic I read in your posts.
You could use some.
Let's start with how it is delusional to place so much power on an inanimate object. It is delusional and a danger to others to believe you must kill someone who "mishandles" a book.
Anyone of any religion who believes/practices these things is dangerously delusional and requires therapy--not the rest of the world winking and nodding, and acting as though their psychotic demands are rational.
You know it. Why do you pretend it is a rational demand?
the point of your saying "our abuses (which must be stopped) are generally much less extreme than what the other side does routinely" is exactly what? btw I read block printing well enough, it's only cursive that I have a problem with.
Lash wrote:You could use some.
Let's start with how it is delusional to place so much power on an inanimate object. It is delusional and a danger to others to believe you must kill someone who "mishandles" a book.
Anyone of any religion who believes/practices these things is dangerously delusional and requires therapy--not the rest of the world winking and nodding, and acting as though their psychotic demands are rational.
You know it. Why do you pretend it is a rational demand?
I don't - I think it ridiculous.
Like the irrationalities of other religions.
You just think yours rational - they think theirs - so it goes.
I think you're all nuts.
dyslexia wrote:the point of your saying "our abuses (which must be stopped) are generally much less extreme than what the other side does routinely" is exactly what? btw I read block printing well enough, it's only cursive that I have a problem with.
I believe it to be a call for a bit of perspective.
dlowan wrote:Lash wrote:You could use some.
Let's start with how it is delusional to place so much power on an inanimate object. It is delusional and a danger to others to believe you must kill someone who "mishandles" a book.
Anyone of any religion who believes/practices these things is dangerously delusional and requires therapy--not the rest of the world winking and nodding, and acting as though their psychotic demands are rational.
You know it. Why do you pretend it is a rational demand?
I don't - I think it ridiculous.
Like the irrationalities of other religions.
You just think yours rational - they think theirs - so it goes.
I think you're all nuts.
You have no idea what I think re religion. The only way you could make such a comment is to blanket stereotype, which is what you are guilty of here.
And, when I begin to infringe on others' rights and state that behavior that is inconsistent with my religion requires death, you will have a point.
Lash wrote:dlowan wrote:Lash wrote:You could use some.
Let's start with how it is delusional to place so much power on an inanimate object. It is delusional and a danger to others to believe you must kill someone who "mishandles" a book.
Anyone of any religion who believes/practices these things is dangerously delusional and requires therapy--not the rest of the world winking and nodding, and acting as though their psychotic demands are rational.
You know it. Why do you pretend it is a rational demand?
I don't - I think it ridiculous.
Like the irrationalities of other religions.
You just think yours rational - they think theirs - so it goes.
I think you're all nuts.
You have no idea what I think re religion. The only way you could make such a comment is to blanket stereotype, which is what you are guilty of here.
And, when I begin to infringe on others' rights and state that behavior that is inconsistent with my religion requires death, you will have a point.
Yep - you're right - I do blanket stereotype - I consider all religion delusion. You are a christian - that is all I need to know.
Quote:Word for the day:bigoted
adjective DISAPPROVING
- She's so bigoted that she refuses to accept anyone who doesn't think like her.--Cut and pasted definition and accompanying sentence.
We secular folk have had the fortunate opportunity, in most western countries, to rob christianity of most of its ability to cause people to be killed for religious reasons. I suggest you look at history to see what christianity was capable of when allowed to have access to power - and what the religious right is trying to do with power again. You might look at the death rates in countries like Brazil from botched abortions - which its christian religion forbids legally in most circumstances - to see how it can still kill, just as one example.
Quote:I did not fight in the Crusades, nor did you, riding about on your White Horse, wave your Better Than Ye wand and fight history's lesser thans. Talk about Narcissistic! Damn! Were you Joan of Arc in a previous life as well. Geez. Don't look now, but you have now topped your incredible self-righteousness--(which is quite a feat. Kudos!) Each society on the face of the earth has done good and bad. By virtue of the fact that you don't have any religious beliefs --despite your bizarre thesis--is no reason to pat yourself on the back for history. Good God
Do Brazilians vote?.
For historical reasons - which doubtless the likes of Setanta could elucidate - Islam in many places has not had the same salutory pruning of its ability to do harm.
Quote:And that is what is being done right now. Don't you applaud it?.
I actually think you are a perfectly reasonable christian, as it happens, but your religion has a long and extremely bloody history.
Quote:I hope Islam grows out of that, or is forced to, as christianity gradually was.However, to believe in what christians believe in, and to condemn as utterly irrational another religions shibboleths lacks logical consistency.Every group, creed, race, religion, bunch of tree loving druids ET AL have. If you have to reach that far back, I'm sure some caveman in your family tree smacked his wife about and used his children for self-gratification. Really. How far back do you need to go to compare Christians to Muslims?
Quote:POINT: Christianity DID grow out of it. Quite a while ago.
Quote:As I said--when my personal rights and beliefs infringe on you--and threaten your life--you'll have a point. I don't threaten you to adhere to my beliefs. They DO.
I maintain, it is all irrational.
Quote:But, it is not all deadly--or intolerant to the point of murder, condoned by the religion.
And yes, you guys fortunately do not share that particular piece of nonsense. There was a time when christian power forbade ordinary people to even read from your particular holy book, because it was too holy for their low minds, though - since they might start to challenge their betters if they read the "word of god" for themselves. So your lot's book behaviour has not been historically rational.
Quote:Yeah. There was a time leeches were used for gangrene, but I don't hear you yelling at the medical community about it. You are having to reach WAY TOO FAR.
Thing is - it boils down not to what is reasonable or unreasonable, but to treatment of prisoners.
When someone is totally in your power, do you, or do you not, think it reasonable to disrespect whatever their shibboleths and such are?
Quote:Depends on what the rewards may be. Might it save lives? Might it dispel serious problems at the facility? Might it cause serious problems at the facility? Depends. I personally would take great hesitation in doing this to someone--but would if I had evidence they had information that would hurt AQ--and additionally had good reason to believe that doing so would cause them to talk. Actually, I don't see how doing such a thing wouldn't magnify their hatred and resolve NOT to talk--but I would consider my allowance of their religious things as completely deferential on my part--and quite good luck on theirs.
I think flags and so on meaningless rags - but I would not consider it reasonable behaviour to burn and abuse people's flags if they meant something to them, when they were my prisoner. To me a crucifix is an odd shape - I would not consider, as a captor, right to hang it upside down, or do other crap with it.
Quote:It's not a tea party.
I wouldn't serve beef to Hindu prisoners (I suspect there would be some rioting about THAT, if it were done!), pork to Jews, or direspect guinea pigs to the famous guinea pig cult of west kalamantang.
Quote:Would you bring everything o a screeching halt if one of these things were done? Priorities...
Anyhow - it is moot. Your military has admitted some wrongdoing (I suspect rather more than they admitted, and less than the detainees claimed - but c'est la vie) and appears to have corrected it. This suggests they see things somewhat the same as I do, hmmm?
Quote:Yep - some Muslims got all ariegated about it. If christians wouldn't, more power to their elbow. Some christians get all ariegated and fire and brimstoney about things like homosexuality.LOL!! No. It's exactly as I said. Detainees complaints in order to be believed, would have to be corroborated by others. This happened. Proving many of the guards are honest and can be trusted to do the right thing.
Quote:Our religion doesn't condone their murder, though.
BIG difference.
Stereotyping is wrong--no matter who your victim is.
Just wondering why when some refer to "detainees", there is the assumption of guilt. How many of these men have been released w/o any charges being laid?
Seems to me, many Bushies equate detainment with guilt, and therefore find this a simple justification for any mistreatment.
Being released without any charges does not equate to being innocent either. Not one person in Guatanamo is not guilty of raising arms against the US military forces in Afghanistan.
Most of them are classified as being illegal combatants.
Oh - so sorry Lash - re the bigoted bit - I had no idea the rules were that only Islam's foolishnesses could be condemned and stereotyped.
Well, get on the right page. Each behavior --in order to avoid stereotyping and bigotry--should be examined separately--and hopefully, when you learn this lesson of tolerance and forward thinking, you'll be kind enough to afford this bit of fairness to my servicemen and women, who you like to blanket-accuse, as well. The tenet of the Islamic religion which pronounces the murder of those who touch the Koran "incorrectly" as not only acceptable--but the DUTY of good Muslims--is completely delusional and unsupportable--no matter how you strive to support it.
Hmmm - so it is bigoted to declare any religious shibboleths than theirs ridiculous? You don't like it? Then don't do it.
I don't do it. You do. You should be ashamed, and you should stop. Political correctness has driven you over the brink of rationality. How can you support murder of those touching a book a certain way?
Yet, you were so eager that I should condemn the book thing as deluded - you accused me of colluding with their delusions.
This is true. You support their delusions by acting as though they are instead--reasonable, and worthy of the media hoopla that has resulted.
Pray, defend how regarding their book as intrinsically precious, apparently on the advice of their god, through his prophet, is any more deluded than other beliefs apparently advised by your god, through HIS prophets?
Our religion does not expect or condone murder. You, therefore, do not see mass hordes of Christians murdering people for book handling infractions. However, if you happen upon some action that causes harm to people--which is espoused by Christians--and includes their intolerance of other religions--resulting in Christians' permission by church leadership to kill those who have offended our sensibilities--please point this out, as I would happily and dutifully join you in the condemnation.
Don't hold your breath, though.
Gods are unpredictable things once you believe in them. They appear to comand many odd things.
So, do adherents of these faiths get absolution for their crimes if they're whacked out on religion? Eric Rudolph didn't. May be if he switches to Islam...?
Oh - I accept you religious folk all right - as long as you do not try to foist your beliefs on me or your religion's prejudices onto society at large. As the religious right, as I pointed out, still tries to do.
Sorry. You are in the electoral minority. You'll have to deal with it--or get involved in the electoral process... Nothing has been imposed on you. You live in a democracy. You don't always get what you want.
Actually, I have great respect for many christians and such that I know - the ones that are also respectful of the beliefs of others. I think them deluded, as they do me, because I do not believe in the god they do - but we respect each other's differences.
You don't have any real respect for people you claim are deluded.I just find you ridiculous when you label one set of religious irrationality acceptable, and equally unfounded ones fine.
The beliefs, I could care less about-- When those beliefs are intolerant and presume to act as judge and jury and executioner on others--I will call it irrational, delusional and dangerous.
You are very clear about your contempt for many left of centre ideas - does this make you a bigot? Religion is a set of ideas and beliefs about the nature of reality. Generally, we are allowed to express our opinion that a set of beliefs is irrational - except to you???
Each idea, movement, tenet is judged on it's own merit. If it is bizarre, intolerant, wrong-headed or positive--I will judge it so, as will everyone else. I will NOT, unlike you, smugly take a huge, internally diverse group and fart a cloud of bigotry on them.
I am comfortable making a statement about all Muslims who have certain beliefs--knowing there are Muslims, who hold other beliefs.
Edit:
Re the Brazilians - yes, they vote - but I believe changes to abortion laws have, until recently, been too dangerous for politicians to discuss - because of the hold religion has had on public discourse in the country. recently, the leftish Lula government relaxed abortion laws.
Until now, botched illegal abortions were the leading cause of death in the country for women of child bearing age. Many Brazilian women had themselves sterilized to protect themselves.
Who do you blame that on?
Bear in mind, re the still killing thing, that this is what the christian right will do for American women, if they get their way.
The Sky Is Falling in your neck of the woods, eh? That is a hysterical, unsupportable bit of propaganda you've been sold from the Planned Parenthood lobby.
Probably without protecting too many foetuses, since abortions seem to occur willy nilly. Of course, American women would not die in such numbers, since I gather good birth control is readily available - unless the same far right forbid that, too, if they get the power - and insist people rely on abstinence?
Maybe they'll kill everyone of color, too, and develop a race of blonde, blue eyed people... How do you sleep at night believing such buggerman stories. You sure have been sold.
Not as dramatic as terrorism - but interesting nonetheless, no?
No. A bit crazy.
Remember - both terrorists and christian far right believe themselves to be acting morally and in accord with the direction of their gods.
Christians bear no similarity with terrorists. Maybe you'd like to have dinner with them and compare. I think you should visit the Christians first, as the terrorists will slice your head off. That comparison is unforgivable and blindingly leftist.
Anyhoo - this is a digression - for which I apologize - you just claimed so shrilly that christians no longer cause deaths.
They don't. People vote. If you want to point out a Christian dictatorship, which murders, which has the support of the Christian church----then, you will have a point. Otherwise, you should admit, at least to yourself if no one else, that you are stretching ridiculously this false point. Patting Muslim heads over book mishandling feeds their disease.
