"Democracy"

By definition, democracy is the rule of the people. If you've got an agenda here, just spit it out. People don't like to feel they've been suckered.

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Rule by the Majority.

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Is democracy better than other social arrangements of governance? I am forwarding the position, that democracy by any social definition is oppressive . .

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Every form of government has aspects of oppression.

Even anarchy.

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Lash wrote:

Every form of government has aspects of oppression.

Even anarchy.

Good point.

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A pure democracy has the potential to be every bit as oppressive and tyrannical as any other form of unlimited government.

That's why our founders crafted a republican form of government with limited powers.

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paul andrew bourne wrote:

Is democracy better than other social arrangements of governance? I am forwarding the position, that democracy by any social definition is oppressive . .

Democracy is no better than two wolves and a sheep voting for what shall be for dinner. Our Founding Fathers knew this and is why they gave us a constitutionally limited Republican Form of Government in which the inalienable rights of the individual were intended to be protected by government, not trampled upon as they now are.

Those who confuse our system of government [a constitutionally limited Republican form of government, protected by Art. IV , Sec. 4, u.s.const.] with DEMOCRACY should find the following quite interesting.

Madison, who, in talking about "democracies", points out in Federalist Paper No. 10. "...have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths..."; and during the Convention which framed our Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate "the evils we experience," saying that those "evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy..."; and then there was John Adams, a principle force in the American Revolutionary period who pointed out "democracy will envy all, contend with all, endeavor to pull down all; and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand for a short time, it will be revengeful, bloody, and cruel...".

Democracy can best be described as mob-rule government…very different from our constitutionally limited Republican form of government...our constitution being designed to protect life, liberty and rights associated with property ownership, democracy yielding to mob-rule feeling and group theft!

There may be many definitions of what one calls "democracy", but the irrefutable fact is, our system was created with a specific intent to restrain the excesses of "democracy" .

JWK

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[size=7]How nice to agree with Merry![/size]

Very Happy

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Lash wrote:

[size=7]How nice to agree with Merry![/size]

You don't have to whisper, Lash. (Although, come to think of it, maybe it's best that nobody knows we actually canagree on something from time to time. Smile

)

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Debra_Law wrote:

A pure democracy has the potential to be every bit as oppressive and tyrannical as any other form of unlimited government.

That's why our founders crafted a republican form of government with limited powers.

wonder what they would think about the state of our union today ?

you always seem to have a good grip on the constitution, any comments ?

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[size=7]No one will suspect us when we form an alliance, Merry! Shhh[/size]

As I understand--and until someone makes a better opposing point--the checks and balances made vast improvements on straight democracy. There is room for abuses--but the room is small--and I think our remedies are installed, as well.

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Re: "Democracy"

paul andrew bourne wrote:

Is democracy really the voice of the people?

As close as it comes.

That the voice of the people may argue for oppressive actions is irrelevant as respects your question, but it is inevitable that there are A2K voices who, gratuitously, insist upon educating us on the dark side of our treasured concepts.

For those who would work so diligently, and reliably, to find the flaws in democracy, please provide us with the preferable alternative to the governance of Man.

Sadly there is an conclave on A2K who believe that they are somehow demonstrating a unique intelligence by offering up the dark side of each and every principle that might be held deeply by the majority (those oppressive bastards!).

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Re: "Democracy"

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

paul andrew bourne wrote:
Is democracy really the voice of the people?

As close as it comes.

That the voice of the people may argue for oppressive actions is irrelevant as respects your question, but it is inevitable that there are A2K voices who, gratuitously, insist upon educating us on the dark side of our treasured concepts.

Forsooth, what is this pernicious little word, educate, that you seek to impose upon my comfortable little world. I have my flag, my prejudices, my ignorances to keep me warm; what need have I for education?

For those who would work so diligently, and reliably, to find the flaws in democracy, please provide us with the preferable alternative to the governance of Man.

How about democracy mixed with some morality, some respect for others, some tolerance, some open-mindedness? How about imagining that democracy cannot be taught at the point of a cruise missile? How about democracy brought to a country without shock and awe, without blugeoning a populace into submission?

How about a democracy that holds to democratic principles; the sanctity of life, not just for the "us's" but for the "thems" too. How about a democracy that gives more than lip service to making this a better world for all? How about a democracy that puts their money where their mouth is instead of using their wealth as a tool to advance only themselves and their interests?

Sadly there is an conclave on A2K who believe that they are somehow demonstrating a unique intelligence by offering up the dark side of each and every principle that might be held deeply by the majority (those oppressive bastards!).

Even more sadly, there are those who hide behind talking points and vague generalities and then mistakenly believe that they are being democratic. It is the very antithesis of democracy that "principle[s] that might be held deeply by the majority" are somehow off limits to criticism.

But sad as it makes me to say so, I'm not at all surprised to find that you hold to such beliefs, Buzz.

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Quote:

... please provide us with the preferable alternative to the governance of Man.

Maybe a "participatory democracy" -- what we enjoy now is a spectator's democracy; a minority of citizens, once every few years, gets off its collective duff and wearily makes a choice between tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee, then the winning side congratulates itself on being part of the process, the losers claim the vote was rigged, then everyone goes back to whatever they were doing before all those horrible political commercials started running non-stop.

I don't think US democracy is incurably ill, but I don't think it's particularly healthy at the moment either.

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Well spoken, Hightor . . .

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Participatory democracy-- Raging civic minded individuals raid into y0our home, shake you by the collar, and demand you mark the ballot they hold under your nose?

If you can't get off your duff, ... <imagine profane suggestion here>.

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Hi Lash,
I was suggesting participatory democracy not compulsory democracy; I'd be happy to discuss some models of how this might work and how it might be accomplished, although it doesn't sound as if I'd particularly enjoy discussing them with you.

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Pretend you're discussing it with someone else.

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Lash wrote:

Participatory democracy-- Raging civic minded individuals raid into y0our home, shake you by the collar, and demand you mark the ballot they hold under your nose?

If you can't get off your duff, ... <imagine profane suggestion here>.

"vee half vays off makingg you sign zee pepperz." :wink:

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"Democracy"

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