the religion you disagree with most - no comments please

Brahmin: It's not my name; the myth just really struck a chord with me, so I nicked the name for my Avatar.

As for the Celtic descent part, my grandmother was pure Irish, and my grandfather partly Irish, so I'm a bit over 1/4 Irish myself.

Also, I didn't know Frank Wright was also known as Taliesin. Crazy.

Always a pleasure.

hi,

he wasnt known by this name - but his mother always thought of him as nothing less than the incarnate of Taliesin and used to call him by as much. And he never thought too different either !!
edit: ** and went on later to design an edifice by the same name **

now say the "crazy!!" that you did.




and these are crazier or what ???


http://www.geocities.com/indianpaganism/celticvedic.html

http://northernway.org/school/onwarticles.html

http://www.ancientquest.com/embark/druidism.html (read specially about the music bit here)

http://www.geocities.com/indianpaganism/hornedgod.html


and this

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=druids+and+hindu&btnG=Search



i'd like to know your thoughts.

btw.... pls come up with the reasons of your votes....not many have revealed the reasons.....

I bet the people who voted for Islam has no idea what that religion is all about.

we will find out soon - if and when they stste their reasons for voting thus.

Brahmin: Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I wanted to make sure I had everything together first. You've touched onto a subject that has extreme personal relevance to me, and I wanted to include all portions of my philosophy.

Here goes:
Two years ago, I was assigned a project on Mythology, which is one of my favorite subjects. The point was to research a particular facet, and give a report on it to the class. I, of course, went into overdrive, and re-studied everything I could get my hands on. In the course of this, I started noticing all these patterns and re-occurences, most notable of which was the occurence of the number three. Triple-goddesses were featured abundantly in all the mythologies I investigated, especially in Greek mythology. After I went back and actually looked for examples of threes, I found these notable ones:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38559&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

Then, having found them, I started to try and come up with some way of explaining them, which I found in Jungian Psychology and the works of Joseph Campbell. The conclusion I came to is that all these patterns and archetypes were the result of Jung's "collective unconscious"; a sort of shared source of instinct shared by all human beings, and that humanity was creating these religions as a way of manifesting these subconscious ideas they had.

Once I had that idea, though, I took it to the next level. If all these mythologies are just the result of the collective unconscious, then isn't it logical to conclude that the sum of humanity, represented in the collective unconscious, is God? This could explain why all religions preach mostly the same values, and why there are so many interpretations of the same motif: Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Mother, Maiden, Crone; Creator, Preserver, Destroyer; Sky, Earth, Sea; Heaven, Limbo, Hell; etc. It also provides a glimpse of what humanity is collectively capable of.



Well, that's my spiel. Thoughts? Comments?

Taliesen, Without having done all that investigation, I also came to almost the same conclusion except for the part that the collective represents god. Many interpret nature as god, but I don't. I believe there is something inherent in humans that seeks to find and/or create gods. That's the reason why so many different cultures from different parts of earth developed their own god(s). I find most man-made religions to be dogmatic and often prescribe the wrong message to its followers. The most recent example is the admonition of Pope Benedict for Africans to refrain from using the concom; it is not wrong-headed and dangerous.

this is something i find very difficult to add to, but i will just try to make a point or three and hope you can incorporate it somewhere in your "speil".


the exact term for a "way-of-life" religion such as mine, is not "nature religion". i forget the exact term, but it means more or less "a school of thought that states things as they see it".

EDIT - "Empirical Immanentism" or at least "off" Empirical Immanentism.




what i am trying to say is that, before the messaiac / abrahamic religions, most if not all religions and ways of lives and belief systems, were of this kind.


they more or less formed their philosophies and mythologies as per what they got to see in the world around them.


could the triple godess you mention be a by product of the above property - that whosoever formed the basics of the many pre abrahamic religions, had pretty much the same things to base his//her/their philosophy on and hence the similarity in their myths and beliefs?

and hence we have Thor-Odin-Freya, we have Osiris-Ra-Isis, we have creater-preserver-destroyer, we have the holy trinity (which though very post abrahamic, is a concept i think that distilled down from pre abrahamic schoosl of thought) i am , many more such triads.

possible?

man made religions are dogmatic or the delivered religions?

is christianity man made ?

1. All religions are man-made.
2. All have dogma.
3. The only "delivered" religion are those that survive from one generation to the next.
4. If all religions are man-made, what do you think christianity is?

Man only needs one man-made rule to live a good life on this planet. Treat all living things with respect and dignity. Don't need any more than that! Simple and to the point.

its not the word of man that judaism, christianity and islam preaches, but the word of god as handed out to man.


when i said man made, i meant religions that dont claim that the "word" of that religion came from god. in the first cases, even if (no offence intended, just exploring a possibility) those religions were man made, (ie. made wholly by man and his mind), as you claim all religions are, they at least claim to have got their ideas from the maker itself - ie. claim not to be man-made, but delivered.

delivered here means from god to man, not from generation to generation. at least thats how i used the word "delivered".

and define dogma please.

"Dogma" is defined in any dictionary. Mine says "a doctrine; tenet, esp. a theological doctrine strictly adhered to."

One good example is "do not eat meat on Friday." I would label that a dogma.

Brahmin: Could you elaborate more on what you mean by "way of life religion", please? also, would you mind stating your religion precisely? I assume it's Hinduism, but I'd like to know for sure. Once I have that info I'll feel more sure about my response. Thanks.

Italy prepares for fertility vote
Italians are going to the polls on Sunday and Monday in a referendum that the Roman Catholic Church has asked them to boycott on moral grounds.
They will vote on proposals to ease controversial rules restricting assisted fertility. A 50% turnout is needed for the law to be changed.

Feelings are running high over the Church's right to influence people's political as well as moral choices.

The current law is among the most restrictive in Europe.

It was passed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's centre-right government last year.

Women's groups and Italy's Radical Party have collected four million signatures to force the referendum on whether to ease the rules.

Italians will be asked whether they want to lift the following restrictions:


a ban on donor sperm and eggs;

a ban on scientific research on embryos;

a ban on embryo screening for couples with hereditary diseases;

the rule that only three embryos per treatment can be created, all of which have to be implanted at the same time.
The law was drafted and passed amid concerns that Italy had become one of the world's most liberal countries regarding assisted fertility.

Controversial cases that fuelled the debate included that of a 62-year-old woman who gave birth after fertility treatment.

But critics say Italy has now the most restrictive legislation in Europe, forcing infertile couples to seek treatment abroad and thereby discriminating against poorer couples.

'Interference'

Newly elected Pope Benedict XVI last month congratulated Italian bishops on their decision to urge people to boycott the referendum.


I think that Italian Catholics are liberal. They are not fundamentalists. They voted in favour of divorce and abortion
Daniele Capezzone
Italy's Radical Party

But those who are trying to get the law changed say it is an unwelcome and unwarranted interference by the Vatican in Italian domestic politics.

"The Catholic Church has every right to spread its word, to send out its message, of course," said Daniele Capezzone, secretary of Italy's Radical Party, a leading promoter of the current referendum.

"But we cannot allow the legitimate moral convictions of some to result in others being forced or forbidden to do certain things."

Fence-sitting

Many top politicians have failed to speak their mind on the issue, choosing to be cautious in order not to alienate the Catholic electorate and the Vatican.

Mr Berlusconi has not indicated whether and how he will vote, and opposition leader and former EU Commission President Romano Prodi has only said he will vote, without specifying which way.

Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, who also leads the right-wing National Alliance, has been one of the few to take a clear stand, saying he will vote "Yes" to the majority of the proposed changes.

He has created a split within his own party and attracted fierce criticism.

Nobel prize laureate Rita Levi Montalcini and other high-profile Italian and international scientists have urged voters to ease the legislation.



Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4083728.stm

Published: 2005/06/12 03:45:18 GMT

yes hinduism.

its not so much a religion as its just a set of guidelines or even plain advice, suggesting a way of life.

that "way", practised over thousands of years has taken the appearence of religions.

the abrahamic religions are religions right off the bat. starts with "commandments" and tenets. they have of course over time sometimes taken the appearence of a "way of life" but essentially they are religions, that became a way of life.

with hinduism, its the other way round. it was born a way of life - but became a religion.

as did all or most of the other "state what you observe" kind of schools of thought.

Brahmin: So you're saying that Hinduism is more a philosophy that was ascribed divinity, instead of the other way around, like if someone formed a religion around existentialism? Interesting. Existentialism might be a bad example, but I think I understand your point now.

I honestly don't know how I would incorporate these "pre-religions" into my theory. It's possible that since they were more philosophies than actual statements about "the divine", and were thus strictly physical, that they did not tap into the collective unconscious while forming their ideas, and therefore didn't have "the triad" present.

In other words, since they were not trying to access "the divine", the "divine forms", i.e. "the triad", were not present in their philosophy.

What do you think?

sorry i am late.. i forgot all about this thread.


i think we are talking past each other.


i tried to point out that there are certain similarities in pre messaic "religions" (actually philosophies, which gave rise to a "way of life", which crystallised to take a "religion like" appearence), in at least so much as the "triad" being present in most of them, PROBABLY because they were all begat by a "state what you observe" kind of approach.


you just said ...
""It's possible that since they were more philosophies than actual statements about "the divine", and were thus strictly physical, that they did not tap into the collective unconscious while forming their ideas, and therefore didn't have "the triad" present.

In other words, since they were not trying to access "the divine", the "divine forms", i.e. "the triad", were not present in their philosophy. ""

but they DID have the triad present, most if not all the pre messiac "religions' - thor.odin.fryea / ra.isis. osiris / creater.destroyer.preserver./ many more...

Actually, most of the mythologies you're describing did have messiahs, who all mirrored the story of Jesus(or, as I see it, that the story of Jesus mirrored). Norse myth had Balder, who was destined to rule the world after Ragnarok, the last battle, and egyptian myth had Osiris, who came back to life after his betrayal and death to rule the land of the dead. I don't remember if there was a "last battle" scenario in egyptian myth, but if there was, he's probably destined to rule afterwards like Jesus/Balder.

I think we're still struggling with a clear definition of what you call "way of life" religions. explain it one more time, and give examples. We'll crack this case!

but before that lets get the "messaih" bit sorted out !!

""Norse myth had Balder, who was destined to rule the world after Ragnarok, the last battle, and egyptian myth had Osiris, who came back to life after his betrayal and death to rule the land of the dead""

^^^^^^^^^ thats what you said... i am not so sure about Mr Balder (though by what yo9u said, he too belongs to the realm of mythology), but Osiris is a God about whon there is this beautiful mythology associated about how he/she comes back to earth ever Autumn or thereabouts.

and thats not a messaih !!

a messaih is someone who is real, not mythological, whom suppsedly god had sent, who supposedly has or had ability to communicate with the maker and it is he, or at least his uttarances, who/that go/goes on to define the religion. David koresh was more messaih to his band of followers than Osiris, and so was marshal applewhite.


the first messaih as we know the term is abraham or moses.


and you read those links about zorastrianism right. so you know that much more about mirroring and the direction of it lol.


so lets try again.... why do ancient religions/ways of lives, have similarities, in particular the belief in a triad ?