My Country

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This is sort of a psuedo-politics topic, but I think it belongs here.

While visiting relatives in Florida a week or so ago, I drank coffee from a George Bush mug. It had his face on it, and on the other side, the red/blue map of the electoral votes and a caption that said "Bush Country. My Country".

Naturally, that bugged me a bit since I didn't vote for him and I still perceive this to be my country as well. That didn't stop me from drinking coffee from his head and savoring the irony.

I know we've talked about this before -- the divisiveness in American politics. So let me just ask you what I asked my relative. Do those of you who voted for Bush really perceive the rest of us as enemies or pollutants of your red-blooded land? Are 48 million of us really no more than blue specks on a coffee mug to you? Or do you still see us as fellow Americans and do you see a possibility of finding common ground?

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Re: My Country

FreeDuck wrote:

I know we've talked about this before -- the divisiveness in American politics. So let me just ask you what I asked my relative. Do those of you who voted for Bush really perceive the rest of us as enemies or pollutants of your red-blooded land? Are 48 million of us really no more than blue specks on a coffee mug to you? Or do you still see us as fellow Americans and do you see a possibility of finding common ground?

Enemies?? ... No, never enemies.

Pollutants?? ... I never thought of any on the left as 'befouling' this country.
I always try to seek SOME common ground with those on the other side of the issues.

The difficulties seem to come in the perceptions of each other. You seem to see US as looking on you that way.

On the other hand, I have been treated as and called on more than one occasion a beer swilling redneck (I don't drink much was born in New Jersey), a Fascist, Nazi or Brownshirt (I lost several members of my family fighting the Fascists in WW2 so this one is agravating), a Bible thumping fanatic who wants an American theocracy (I keep my religious beliefs to myself, but my morals are my own, not to be placed on anyone else), a heartless bastard who wants to end Welfare and throw the poor to the streets to starve (While I think Welfare, WIC and the other programs to assist the poor are fine, when many families have been on Welfare for three and four generations and have never worked a day in their lives, there IS a problem and room for change) and a corporate stooge for sticking up for the rights of corporations to do what they were designed to do ... make money.

I have been called all these things and worse...

Is this how you see those of us on the Right ?

If you find yourself saying YES to some of these, is there a wonder when we seem to wish to ignore what many of you say?

Respect is a two way street.

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Thanks for the response, Fedral.

The short answer as to how I see those of you on the right is no, I don't see you as those things mentioned, but I know that people who fit those descriptions are solidly in your camp. Just as I'm sure you know that crossdressers and communists are pretty much solidly in the other camp. I guess that's my camp for lack of another. But as I've mentioned, I have family and friends in your camp. I understand how they think. I disagree with them on many many things, but they are still my family. If Kerry had one, it would have never occurred to me to get a mug with his face on it.

Respect is definitely a two-way street, as are stereotypes and such. And there's nothing wrong with ignoring people whose opinions you don't respect. But the thing about the mug made it seem like a clear division. Red vs. Blue. Bush voters vs. everyone else. The country belongs to the Bush voters. End of story.

It was on a mug, so somebody thought it out and printed it and had these things made and distributed them. I was a bit taken aback by that, but I probably shouldn't have been.

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I voted for neither Bush or Kerry so I have issues with both "camps".

The majority of those who voted for Bush or Kerry are partisen SAPS, in my view, who vote party lines without given any thought as to the qualifications of your candidate. People like that are probably the one throwing the "insults" both ways.

I can sympathize with Fedral more than Duck as I too have been labeld similarly to Fedral even though I voted for Bednarick for President.

To each side of the "aisle" who vote blindly, you are not enemies of the nation, just uninformed SAPS following along no matter what you candidates positions are.

For those who examined each candidates position carefully, and made your selection, then you can be satisfied that, as usual, you were misled by your candidate.

George Bush is no conservative and John Kerry was , well , I do not know what John Kerry was. Yet each got almost 50% of the popular vote.

The only one who throw "insults" across the aisle are the ill-informed who have no ability to argue objectively./

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http://www.moveonpac.org/savetherepublic/?id=5543-5460587-.smXU7V00dw94dQMzWo2uQ&t=6

Duck - This is the sort of "crap" I refer to.

After examining this , explain how this is helpful to them if their objective is for them to get people like ME on "their side".

I view "crap" like this and it only puts the Democrats further outside my views.

Not picking on the Dems here, but I just saw this on Drudge. The republicans are just as bad.

PS: their message as usual is a complete distortion of the facts.

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I really don't think the average person looks at those with different political views as an enemy. I think the perception is there that that is the case because too many times political candidates do all they can to portray their positions as "us vs. them". It galls me to have democrats make claims as they have over the years that republicans want to harm senior citizens or that we don't care that seniors have to choose between food or medicine. It is disingenuous to say the least. And I am sure republicans have done the same thing (just can't think of an example this second, sorry).

As far as the mug goes, I would not buy one with any president's head on it, but someone in this great, free market economy saw a way to make a buck by making them. I am sure if Kerry had won there would be people selling and buying mugs with his picture on it too.

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We have our resident, reactionary wacko where i live, but he usually doesn't say much to me, just gets a sour look and shuts up. That's because he went after me on the patriotism thing one time, and it turns out that he never served a day in his life. I have, and i gave him hell. End of story.

I go from one day to next with never a discussion of politics, apart from those which occur in these fora. I see nonsensical and sometime even insulting bumper stickers and decals on vehicles from time to time, but they don't mean anything to me. Such matters simply never rise above the horizon of my day-to-day life, my real life.

Someone here once accused me of hating christians, of being obsessed, suggested that i lay awake nights . . . but just as with politics, the subject simply isn't a part of my everyday life. The importance of that is that the accuser was projecting his obsessive behavior on to me. But i only ever discuss politics or religion when i come here. In the real world, we all of us have too many other important things on our mind to be obsessed with these subjects--or, at any event, so i would speculate.

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Enemies and pollutants, FreeDuck? Never. A necessary counterbalance, for sure.

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Oh and FreeDuck, on the topic of the George Bush coffee mug, keep this in mind.

We are living in the days of computer printed logos and pictures. it is possible to get most anything put on a shirt, button or mug.

You can find someplace that will print anything you want on just about any object you want, from a photo of your car, to a picture of your ass.

Laughing

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Re: My Country

FreeDuck wrote:

...I know we've talked about this before -- the divisiveness in American politics. So let me just ask you what I asked my relative. Do those of you who voted for Bush really perceive the rest of us as enemies or pollutants of your red-blooded land? Are 48 million of us really no more than blue specks on a coffee mug to you?

I am not sure whether you want to know, but I will take you at your word and tell you. The supposition here is that, since we have been asked for opinions, I can give mine, without having to answer a zillion posts telling me I'm wrong. I doubt I will answer them anyway. Here is what I think.

Yes, there is always the possibility of finding common ground. It would be nice. One of many reasons I post here is to convince those who disagree with me that they're wrong and to bolster those who agree. However, I do find many things that liberals do these days to be disloyal to the country. Please skip the expected responses about how loyalty doesn't mean following bad decisions like lemmings, etc.

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Thanks all who posted. Woiyo, and others who feel they are victims of stereotyping, "I feel your pain". But woiyo, try to imagine that there are people who never before voted for a major party candidate (like me) who did in this last election because it seemed like this time there really was a lesser of two evils. I'm sure I'm wrong about that. But I'm no candidate or party worshipper.

The way roger sees "us" is the same way I see "you". A necessary counterbalance. But I see, even in these posts, a combativeness that is sort of indicative of what I'm talking about.

For Brandon, thanks for posting. I personally post here on these boards for both of the reasons you state, but also with the hopes of learning something and getting a different perspective for my own views.

And for Fedral, thank you for the great suggestion. I can't wait to drink coffee out of my own ass!

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CoastalRat wrote:

I really don't think the average person looks at those with different political views as an enemy. I think the perception is there that that is the case because too many times political candidates do all they can to portray their positions as "us vs. them". It galls me to have democrats make claims as they have over the years that republicans want to harm senior citizens or that we don't care that seniors have to choose between food or medicine. It is disingenuous to say the least. And I am sure republicans have done the same thing (just can't think of an example this second, sorry).

Here's one. What about Democrats are trying to make this a socialist country, hate the military, want to take your guns and teach your children to hate God?

But when it comes down to it, isn't that all just advertising? Can't reasonable people disagree and accept that what's advertised isn't really what's for sale?

Quote:

As far as the mug goes, I would not buy one with any president's head on it, but someone in this great, free market economy saw a way to make a buck by making them. I am sure if Kerry had won there would be people selling and buying mugs with his picture on it too.

Maybe, but the people who love this president really do LOVE him. They put his face on things. I don't even think it was like this when Reagan was president. And even though Clinton had his supporters, I don't recall this much idolisation. Though it's certainly possible that I just wasn't paying attention.

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Excellent examples Free. Couldn't have done better myself.

And I think there are just as many people who REALLY LOVE this president as there were people who REALLY LOVED the last one we had. Even to the extent that we cannot see/accept that they are sometime (oftentimes ??) wrong.

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THE most dangerous thing for our country,

WOULD, without a doubt, be the elimination of either of our political parties and schools of thought.

I am no Republican (anymore) but that doesn't mean I won't be in the future, or that the Republican/conservative thought isn't essential to the continued balance we've enjoyed as a nation for a long time. Just because I wish one school of thought were more dominant, doesn't mean I wish for the elimination of the other.

I can tell ya that the vitriol is just as strong both ways.

Cycloptichorn

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I'm not sure people are being completely honest here.

Do I think of people with opposing views as enemies... some of them. Depending on what the view is and the degree of opposition to mine I can say, for sure, I think of them as an enemy. I think politicians are leading our country down a dangerous path and I think we are nearly to the point of no return.

I had thought about starting a thread called "I wouldn't be so conservative if you weren't so liberal" but this seems like a good place to put it.

I think this works both ways. It suprises me how often the SAME people agree on the SAME things and how others still ALWAYS disagree on the SAME things. There is definitely a mentality of us against them.

Like others have said there needs to be a balance but I think the balances are becoming more and more extreme. The further right the right goes the further left the left goes and vice versa. Both policies, in my opinion, are merely in retaliation of the others policy and BOTH are damaging this country.

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Good post, jp. That's very much the sort of thing I'm talking about. I might have said "I wouldn't be so liberal if you weren't so conservative" but it amounts to the same thing. It's polarisation, and I know we've talked about it before.

The idea, for me, that came across from the dreaded coffee mug example, was that the people in those blue spots -- which includes both me and woiyo exclusion (not red) -- were not only the enemy but so extremely outnumbered that we might as well not be a part of this country. I know we've talked about the map before too and how it makes it look like 48 million people are actually about 100,000. Well, of course, that leaves me only one reaction -- one of opposition. Of course I still believe this is my country, and "your" (coffee mug people, not the posters on this thread) exclusion of me means I must be in opposition to you. Hence the pools. You are either a Bush supporter or a "not" in this new boolean world.

I think that both "sides" do this, but inevitably I hold the one in power to a higher a standard on this because if they don't have the power to change the tone of debate, then who does?

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FreeDuck wrote:

Of course I still believe this is my country, and "your" (coffee mug people, not the posters on this thread) exclusion of me means I must be in opposition to you. Hence the pools. You are either a Bush supporter or a "not" in this new boolean world.

But isn't it that way? I'm not saying that is good or bad but isn't it true? We all think that OUR idea is the correct one and OUR beliefs are the way to go, but aren't we all trying to do what WE think is best for this country? We just have different views which are often in opposition to what others believe. So we are together in the sense of we all want what we think is best, but we are in opposition of how to get there and what "best" actually is.

FreeDuck wrote:

I think that both "sides" do this, but inevitably I hold the one in power to a higher a standard on this because if they don't have the power to change the tone of debate, then who does?

Unfortunately, I think it has become the side which yells the loudest that dictates the tone of debate... if you can call it debate

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Totally agree with that.

Of course we all think we are right. I'm sure I'm just as guilty of aiding in the polarisation as anybody. There was a time when I avoided politics altogether. I'm not quite sure what brought me into it -- perhaps it was the loud yelling that got my attention.

But on the other hand, isn't it possible to believe that you know what's best for the country, and to disagree vehemently with others, but still accept that they just want what they think is best for the country too? I do not agree with my relatives in Florida, but do I, for one second, believe that what they really want is the destruction of our nation? No way. They think that what they are supporting is good for the country and that it will all work out in the end. My job, as a citizen who thinks they know what's best for the country (actually, I know I don't really know that) is to engage them and try to dig down in to what they really believe and see if it isn't something I can agree with.

So that, in a nutshell, is what bugged me so much about the mug. It seemed to say, "it's our country now, those other people don't count and we don't even need to humor them." Of course, it's entirely possible that I was being too sensitive.

My Country

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