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Librarians and the PATRIOT ACT

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 12:04 am
Baldimo wrote:
Why shouldn't a govt agency have to give records to another govt agency?


Data protection reseasons, for instance. (If there's a legal reason for this and either my consent or if it's legal per se - no question at all.)

Are libraries government agencies in the USA, btw?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 12:58 am
The Modern Mommsen wrote:
Are libraries government agencies in the USA, btw?


No, Walter, they are not, not in the sense which Baldimo would have you believe. They are, almost without exception, agencies of municipal government, and as such, have no governmental relationship whatsoever with the Federal government.

The Federal government has a limited ability to compel governments at lower levels. Their relationship to the several states is both described and limited by the Constitution. There is no constitutional relationship between Federal and lower level governments, which is to say, county, parish and municipal government. In most instances in which the Federal government has attempted to use its revenue sharing activities to compel lower level governments, it has been struck down by the courts, the only exception being that it can refuse to disburse funds to lower level governments which do not compy with legislation which the Congress has enacted which speficically calls upon governments to comply in order to receive funds. So, for example, the Federal Highway Transportation Fund will withhold monies to states which do not comply with the speed limit laws they wish to mandate. However, if the state is willing to do without the money, they can set that speed limit which they choose. This is not often done, and when it is, it is done because the Congress would otherwise have no power to compel the lower level government.

Those principles absolutely do not come into play with regard to municipal governments in such a case as this.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2005 06:37 am
Mr Stillwater wrote:
Librarians are just following best practice by keeping the best possible control of their stock. It appears to be a bit of a stoush over who owns and/or has access to their records. I think the librarians here are spot on - bring us proof that there is something unlawful going on and we'll assist you. Turn up with a book that may have even been vandalised in the local FBI HQ to provide a bit of 'proof' and you can just keep whistling thru your hat.....


If the librarians are following a "best practice" it's woefully inadequate. They could have all of the same demographics information without mainitaining any identifying information. Beyond that, relying on data about who took books out of the building (the only time you need to actually check most books out) would ignore all of the patrons that take the book off the shelf and use it within the libraryf. How do they account for usage of materials within the building itself? Or are you saying they ignore that demograpic entirely? That sounds like a pretty poor practice and one that would severely skew any sort of demographic data collection.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 10:19 am
Quote:
House limits Patriot Act rules on library records

Thursday, June 16, 2005

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Advocates of rewriting the USA Patriot Act are claiming momentum after the House, despite a White House veto threat, voted to restrict investigators from using the anti-terrorism law to peek at library records and bookstore sales slips.

Wednesday's 238-187 vote came as lawmakers ramped up efforts to extend the Patriot Act, which was passed quickly in the emotional aftermath of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. When Congress passed the law, it included a sunset provision under which 15 of its provisions are to expire at the end of this year.

Since the Patriot Act passed, liberals and libertarian-oriented conservatives have pressed for changes, citing privacy and civil liberties concerns. The administration has said weakening of the act would draw a veto from President Bush.

"No question, this is a real shot in the arm for those of us who want to make changes to the USA Patriot Act," said Rep. Bernard Sanders, I-Vermont, sponsor of the provision that would curtail the government's ability to investigate the reading habits of terror suspects. He said the vote would help "rein in an administration intent on chipping away at the very civil liberties that define us as a nation."

The vote reversed a narrow loss last year by lawmakers concerned about the potential invasion of privacy of innocent library users. They narrowed the proposal this year to permit the government to continue to seek out records of Internet use at libraries.

The House is debating a $57.5 billion bill covering the departments of Commerce, Justice and State. The Senate has yet to act on the measure, and GOP leaders often drop provisions offensive to Bush in final negotiations.

The Justice Department said in a letter to lawmakers that as of March 30, federal investigators had not used the Patriot Act to obtain library or bookstore records but that the authority provides "an important tool for investigating and intercepting terrorism."

"It bodes well that the first vote Congress has taken on the Patriot Act this year has been in favor of liberty and freedom," said Gregory Nojeim, a lobbyist for the American Civil Liberties Union.

Supporters of rolling back the library and bookstore provision said that the law gives the FBI too much leeway to go on fishing expeditions based on what people read. Innocent people could get tagged as potential terrorists based on what they check out from a library, critics said.

"If the government suspects someone is looking up how to make atom bombs, go to a court and get a search warrant," said Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-New York.

Supporters of the Patriot Act countered that the rules are potentially useful and argued that the House was voting to make libraries safe havens for terrorists.

"If there are terrorists in libraries studying how to fly planes, how to put together biological weapons, how to put together chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, ... we have to have an avenue through the federal court system so that we can stop the attack before it occurs," said Rep. Tom Feeney, R-Florida.

Last year, a similar provision was derailed by a 210-210 tie after several Republicans were pressured to switch votes. In the meantime, a number of libraries have begun disposing of patrons' records quickly so they won't be available if sought under the law.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales told Congress in April that the government has never used the provision to obtain library, bookstore, medical or gun sale records.

But when asked whether the administration would agree to exclude library and medical records from the law, Gonzales demurred. "It should not be held against us that we have exercised restraint," he said.

Authorities have gained access to records through voluntary cooperation from librarians, Gonzales and FBI Director Robert Mueller said.
Source
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:19 am
I don't know about anyone else but I was pleasantly amazed when I read that this morning.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 12:03 pm
Seems to me that all the current hysteria about "book records" fail to recognize that Terrorists must use computers and the internet to communicate..........What computers do they use? Those in libraries? Perhaps, but most likely the terrorists used them very sparingly and with great caution while the provisions of the PA were in place...........what will happen now?

Who gives a damn about books on how to make bombs? What I'm concerned about is the means of communication for terrorists.

I would argue that any retrictions on library records ..... could.....result in making libraries "safe havens" for terrorists. Is that what you want?

The irony in this leftist conspiracy to make libraries safe havens, is that after the next 9/11, those who now whine about losing liberty, MAY be the first to whine about law enforcement not protecting them.......... Twisted Evil
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