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World's most dangerous terrorist...?

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 07:16 pm
hingehead wrote:
A lesson for A2K newbies - when baldie says this:
Baldimo wrote:

Then you would be ignorant of facts. That makes you no better then the extremists and the uneducated.

It simply means that he acknowledges that you don't agree with him. It may seem hurtful the first time but you come to learn it's just the cute little fella's way of showing affection :wink:


I think he may be right about the educated thing.

You said "If I'm killed by terrorism or killed by an army fighting terrorism, or WMD, or liberating my country (or whatever the reason is this week) I am still dead - through no choice of my own."

I'd say his response was spot on.

Can you honestly say you can not tell the difference between those that died in the world trade towerd and those that died in Faluja?

How about those that die in the car bombings vs those who die in the missile strike that takes out the car bomb factory? They are both dead, but your saying you can not distinguish between the methods in killing either...

Ignorant of facts.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 07:42 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Can you honestly say you can not tell the difference between those that died in the world trade towerd and those that died in Faluja?


I had a doctor look at them. He said they were both equally dead.

Are you saying that the 'Supreme Commander' is not responsible for the deaths of his own men when following the administration's orders?

I would have thought every statesmen of worth would accept that responsbility, it's a central element of the burden of power.

Of course, I am uneducated - what would I know?

McGentrix wrote:
Ignorant of facts


Hell of a time for confession McG
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 07:57 pm
Baldimo wrote:
Quote:
Then you would be ignorant of facts. That makes you no better then the extremists and the uneducated. The US hasn't targeted civilians with the express purpose of killing them. There have been accidents, which is the big difference. We try to miss civilians and they don't.


Do you realize how rediculous this sounds? Sure, bombs are dropped and long range weapons fired and the U.S. tries to miss the civilians. They are only killed by accident. Then, of course, the 4 Canadian soldiers killed by U.S. fire in Afghanistan was also an accident, so that makes it ok because it was just an accident.

Granted, there are terrorists in the world that will stop at nothing to make their point. There is also George Bush who will stop at nothing to make his point. The only difference is, we know what their point is.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 08:48 am
I'm posting this here to avoid starting a whole new threead on a similar vein.

Was reading the transcript of yesterdays press briefing with Trent Duffy and besides being shocked at the return of the lie about a 9/11 connection to Iraq. I was struck by the insistance that Bush "empathizes."

Quote:
Q Does the President feel that over the last couple of days he's made an effective and convincing case that Cindy Sheehan is misguided in her feelings about the war and what should happen to the troops?

MR. DUFFY: Well, first of all, the President has spoken continuously about the way he approaches this war, following September 11th, 2001. On September 14th, 2001, he stood at the National Cathedral and told all of America that this was going to be a very long and difficult war, and that there were going to be some very trying moments; but that because of what happened on 9/11, that we had to view the world in a different way.

The bipartisan 9/11 commission wrote all about this in chapter two. The name of that chapter is called, "The Foundation of the New Terrorism." And the bipartisan commission members wrote about the U.S. reaction to terrorist acts overseas in the years leading up to 9/11. They reached a fundamental conclusion: When America takes a single step backwards in the face of terrorism overseas, it brings the terrorists 50 steps closer to our own shores. We saw that after the result of embassy bombings of American embassies overseas, after the U.S.S. Cole was bombed, after Beirut, after Somalia.

The President reiterated that on Tuesday. He empathizes with Ms. Sheehan and those who have lost loved ones. He said Tuesday, again, that they do not represent the view of all mothers and fathers and husbands and wives and children. But we certainly empathize with Ms. Sheehan and those who oppose the war. The President feels fundamentally differently.


So, I went and looked up the difference between sympathy and empathy.

Quote:
The psychological state of sympathy is closely linked with that of empathy, but is not identical to it. Empathy refers to the ability to perceive and directly experientially feel another person's emotions as they feel them, but makes no statement as to how they are viewed. Sympathy, by contrast, implies a degree of equal feeling, that is, the sympathiser views the matter similarly to how the person themselves does. It thus implies concern, or care or a wish to alleviate negative feelings others are experiencing.

Thus it is possible to be:

Empathetic but not sympathetic, by internally experiencing their feeling but not being motivated to alleviating action as a result (eg, a lust killer who is aroused by his victim's fear, or a con artist who knows how his "mark" feels but uses it to manipulate not support),

and it is also possible to be:

Sympathetic but not empathetic by realising (perhaps cognitively) someone is upset and wanting to alleviate that, but not experiencing their sense of upset directly and internally as an emotional state within themselves (eg, a person at a help desk who sees another in distress, does not feel distress themselves, but tries to find what is wrong and help them anyway).


So, he can think real hard about what it might feel like to lose a child in a war based on lies by a power that makes decisions to send other peoples kids to war, but it doesn't lead him to do anything differently?

Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 09:33 am
If Bush couldn't act outside of his emotions he would be a very ineffective leader. It is a harsh reality that tough decisions involving life and death are not best made by those emotionally attached to or affected by the issue. If he empathizes, he must not allow that to sway him from making the right decision, whatever that might be.

By way of example, I'm a firm believer that kidnappers should not be rewarded for their kidnapping. To that end, a policy that prohibits ransoms to be paid to hostage-takers is a good policy. To allow otherwise will only serve to encourage more kidnappings (thank you Italy). If kidnappers or terrorists believe you will give in to their demands or negotiate with them, that will only encourage more kidnappings and terrorism. So this policy is a good one and generally valid regardless of the circumstances.

Of course, if my wife and children were kidnapped, I would believe differently. But this does not mean the policy is wrong, or that it should be lifted. Those who are sympathetic or empathetic to my cause might agree with me and think the policy should be lifted in order to save my family. But the policy should not be lifted. And because of my emotional attachment, I would not be able to see that, and would insist on trying to pay the ransom or negotiate with terrorists, even though that would be the worst thing to do.

Does this sound uncaring and unfeeling? Perhaps. But dealing with terrorists or kidnappers requires determination and strength.

So ... yes, I believe Bush does empathize with those who have lost their children in the war. I understand others won't ... but assuming he does, that does not mean he can allow that to sway him from making the correct decision, detached from his emotions.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 09:50 am
Tico - First, I take your point.

But, for it to be a fair comparison I think the scenario would have to be that your wife and family were being held hostage by someone claiming to hold a gun to their head, but you knew that person didn't really have a gun. Despite that, you send in some stranger to rescue your wife and children, telling the rescuer that the hostage taker has a gun, and in the mean time you go on vacation and carry on with your life. Then, when the rescuer gets killed by friends of the hostage taker that come to his aid, friends you knew were likely to show up but downplayed to the rescuer as no real threat, you claim to empathize with the rescuers family.

Wouldn't seem very sincere, would it?
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 11:29 am
Almost forgot. To make it an even more relevant comparison we would have to add that you told the stranger volunteering to rescue your wife and kids that it would be like getting to play paintball or a live video game and that you would pay for his college when he got back or teach him some really cool skills for a high paying job.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:18 pm
A breathing one.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:24 pm
I'm quite saddened to read that many A2Kers would compare the president of the United States to a bunch of filthy scum that would fly planeloads of innocent civilians into buildings filled with innocent civilians. Remember the images not only of the towers falling but of Islamic a--holes dancing in the streets celebrating the "strike against imperialists".

The only good terrorist is a dead one. May they die young, leave a bullet riddled corpse, and be buried in pigskin.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:48 pm
CJ
What about all the innocent people who died at the hands of George W. Bush? Do they not count for anything?

2 wrongs don't make a right!
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:52 pm
There is a tremendous difference. They weren't targeted.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:55 pm
CJ
I'm very disapointed in that response. Bush went and attacked a country who had nothing to do with 9/11, so if they were not targeted, I don't know what you'd call it.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:00 pm
I won't speak for others, but that was not my meaning.

I think many you encounter here that vocalize their disgust for the president make a distinction between the terrorist attack of 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. I do, anyway. None of the 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq, nor were they trained or financed by Saddam. It wasn't a Saddam attack on America, it was Osama Bin Laden.

That we were needlessly distracted from Afghanistan and the hunting of Osama for the 9/11 attack disgusts me.

That the current administration would continue to mention War on Terror and 9/11 regarding questions on Iraq is even more disgusting.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:02 pm
Ditto, Squinney!
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:25 pm
You can disagree with the war in Iraq, but you cannot say that the U.S. targets civilians. It simply isn't true.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:28 pm
The U.S. attacked an innocent country, so they are responsible for every death caused by this unjustified war. I can't see how you can't see that.

It's terrorism (murder), plain and simple!
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:44 pm
Iraq? Innocent?

Of what?
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:49 pm
Never mind, CJ. I don't want to argue with you!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:50 pm
I think it's Montana, carryin' aroun' them there weapons of mass delusion in her brassiere . . .
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:52 pm
We've been at war with Iraq since 1991, how soon you forget. The Desert Storm coalition wouldn't allow the U.S. to march into Bagdhad and finish the job, so, for a dozen years, Saddam played cat and mouse with the weapons inspectors. While they searched for WMD's the Iraqis were quietly stockpiling huge amounts of conventional weapons - those now being used against our troops.

They stored the weaponry throughout the country, in mosques, homes, libraries, and schools.

Bunch of real innocents there.

I'll agree that invading Iraq in 2003 was wrong. It should have been done a lot sooner.
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