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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:36 am
Ican
Quote:
Northeastern Iraq was under the control of al Qaeda.


Bullsh*t. You have zero evidence that AQ was in control of anything other than a few training bases.

How you can say such things....

Quote:
They must be exterminated like any other deadly human virus.


Sig Heil!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:38 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Some people just do not understand the concept of responsibility for anything that results in any bad consequence. However will take credit for all the thinnest excuse to accept what are conceived as good results.

Perhaps there are such people.

Regardless, perpetrators are responsible for the crimes they perpetrate. Defenders, those attempting to defend people by stopping perpetrators from perpetrating crimes, are responsible for their failures to stop perpetrators from perpetrating crimes. In the first case, the perpetrators are responsible for their murders but not the defender's incompetence. In the second case, the defenders are responsible for their incompetence but not the perpetrator's murders.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:44 am
round and round the mulberry bush etcetera etcetera. etcetera.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:51 am
Quote:
Regardless, perpetrators are responsible for the crimes they perpetrate. Defenders, those attempting to defend people by stopping perpetrators from perpetrating crimes, are responsible for their failures to stop perpetrators from perpetrating crimes.


Defenders are also responsible for crimes they commit in the name of defense.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 10:58 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ican
Quote:
Northeastern Iraq was under the control of al Qaeda.


Bullsh*t. You have zero evidence that AQ was in control of anything other than a few training bases.

How you can say such things....
It's easy! How many is a few training bases? How much of northeastern Iraq did AQ occupy? Enough to resume training of the AQ that fled to northeastern Iraq in December 2001 from Afghanistan. Enough to train another 20 AQ murderers to kill another 3,000 in America. Enough for the AQ to build an effective training program that would subsequently rival what they had in Afghanistan.

Quote:
They must be exterminated like any other deadly human virus.


Sig Heil!
People who murder civilians are contemporary nazis. Those are the people who deserve your "Sig Heil!" Those who defend such people in word and/or deed are their accomplices. People who blame others for what contemporary nazis do are fools. People who think they can negotiate with contemporary nazis and be more successful than Chamberlain in obtaining "peace in our time" are delusional.

Try negotiating with other human viruses, say flue viruses, instead of using flue shots to kill them when they invade your body.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:09 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Defenders are also responsible for crimes they commit in the name of defense. Cycloptichorn


Of course! Those specific defenders who commit actual crimes in the name of defense are responsible for their crimes.

Killing in self-defense is not a crime!

Killing in defense of others is not a crime.

Incompetence in defense is not a crime.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:10 am
ican711nm wrote:
None of the five reasons given asserted that Saddam's regime was involved in 9-11.


True. The UN would never have bought that. Only the American people could swallow one that big.

ican wrote:
No WMD were found. Duelfer Commission verified this.

Thousands of conventional ordnance dumps in Iraq were discovered after the US invasion.

This means nothing.

ican wrote:
Duelfer Commission alleged evidence Saddam was contemplating resumption of development of WMD after UN sanctions were lifted.


ican wrote:

3. Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to resume development of new ready-to-use WMD;


We went from "concealing efforts" to "alleged"ly "contemplating resumption of development". How do you not laugh?

Quote:
A no-fly zone is not a no-control zone. Northeastern Iraq was under the control of al Qaeda. The US requested extradition of their leaders by the Saddam regime. Saddam's regime never responded to the US's requests.

No evidence has ever been presented that this is true. If it were true, why did we not invade from the northeast?

Quote:
On average, over 10,000 Iraqis were murdered per year by Saddam's regime after the Gulf War during the period 1991-2001. In 2002, C-Span among others showed a continuation of these murders: for example, the regime pushing people off bridges to their deaths. Total Iraqi deaths in 2003 were less than in 2002.


Again, nobody knows if your stats are true. Deaths in Iraq have not been counted since, according to all the sources I can find, 1987. I don't know how they are estimated without such data.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:13 am
Not to mention all the children that died from our sanctions; which is always blamed by the right as Saddam's fault.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:21 am
I was going to mention that but didn't want to cloud the issue. The infant morality rate has dropped by 10% since the sanctions were lifted. People under the age of 14 make up more than 40% of the population. It's pretty easy to guess that this would affect the death rate and the total number of deaths.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:34 am
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=816456

Gunmen Kill City Official in Kirkuk
Gunmen in Iraq Kill City Official in Kirkuk, Contractor in Samarra
By PAUL GARWOOD
The Associated Press
Jun. 3, 2005 - Gunmen on Friday killed a city council official in Kirkuk, a contractor renovating a mosque in Samarra and a man standing outside a Baghdad hospital, while several car bombs that targeted U.S. convoys in the capital wounded six civilians, authorities said.

The new bloodshed came a day after 48 people were killed in a particularly violent day in Iraq including more than 30 in four suicide bombings raising to at least 825 the number of people slain since the new Shiite-led government was announced April 28.

In the past 18 months, 12,000 Iraqi civilians were killed, including more than 10,000 Shiites, Interior Minister Bayan Jabr said, citing figures from a research center. But he said he analyzed the figures on the basis of areas where the victims lived, not data explicitly stating the branch of Islam to which they belong.

Separately, Australia's top Muslim cleric, who trying to secure the release of 63-year-old Australian hostage Douglas Wood, said he hoped to receive news of the captive's imminent release. He did not elaborate.

Jabr on Thursday claimed the government offensive seeking to root out kidnappers and other militants in Baghdad had scored big gains, saying this week's sweep by Iraqi soldiers and police, known as "Operation Lightning," captured 700 suspected insurgents and killed 28 militants.

The campaign is the biggest since Saddam Hussein's fall two years ago. Iraqi officials have said the operation, which began Sunday, involves 40,000 soldiers and police, though not all are manning positions at any one time. Before the offensive, authorities controlled only eight of Baghdad's 23 entrances.

But the incessant violence launched by militants from Islamic extremists to Saddam loyalists highlights what still needs to be done to stop the killings.

Gunmen killed Brig. Sabah Qara Alton, a Turkman official at Kirkuk City Council, after he left a mosque in the ethnically mixed northern city following Friday prayers, police Capt. Sarhad Talabani said.

Earlier in the day, gunmen killed Razzouq Mohammed Ibrahim, an Iraqi contractor in charge of renovating a mosque in western Samarra, and stole his car, police Lt. Qassim Mohammed said.

Two Iraqi civilians, including a child, were killed early Friday when their car swerved into a U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle near Khalis, 50 miles north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said.

Insurgents fired mortars at the Baghdad Medical City complex shortly after midday, damaging one of the roof of a building. They then shot and killed an Iraqi man standing outside the complex, U.S. military spokesman Maj. David Abrams said.

A suicide car bomber wounded nine Iraqi soldiers and two women after attacking an Iraqi army checkpoint near the U.S. 42nd Infantry Division base in Tikrit, 80 miles north of Baghdad, police Capt. Hakim al-Azawi said. Police also pulled the body of a man, who had his hands bound and was shot in the head, from the Tigris River, he added.

Car bombs targeted U.S. military convoys in the capital, one of which wounded six Iraqi civilians in western Baghdad, police Capt. Mohammed Abbas said. Another blast damaged an American tank, but caused no U.S. casualties, the military said.

Late Thursday, a suicide car bomber targeted followers of the mystic Islamic Sufi movement, killing at least nine Iraqis and wounding 12 in Yethrib, a remote village near Balad, north of Baghdad, said Dr. Faiz Shawqi, a local hospital official. The suicide bomber also died.

"I was among 50 people inside the tekiya (Sufi gathering place) practicing our rites when the building was hit by a big explosion," said Ahmed Hamid, one of the Sufis, who are regarded as heretics by Islamic extremists believed responsible for suicide bombings. "Then, there was chaos everywhere and human flesh scattered all over the place."

Some 25 other Iraqis, including a young child and deputy provincial leader, were killed across northern Iraqi earlier Thursday in Tuz Khormato, Kirkuk, Mosul and Baqouba.

In Baghdad, men in three speeding cars sprayed gunfire into a crowded market in the northern neighborhood of Hurriyah, killing nine people, the interior and defense ministries said. Two other Baghdad attacks killed four people and injured three.

Gunmen killed Shiite cleric Ali Abdul Hussein outside his home in Basra, 340 miles southeast of Baghdad, police said. At least 10 Shiite and Sunni clerics have been killed in the latest surge in violence.

Sheik Taj El Din al-Hilaly arrived in Baghdad on Wednesday to continue his mission to secure the release Wood, a California-based Australian engineer. The Egyptian-born mufti has said his Iraqi contacts urged him to return to prepare for Wood's possible release.

Wood was abducted in late April, shortly before a militant group, calling itself the Shura Council of the Mujahedeen of Iraq, released a video May 1 showing him pleading for Australia to withdraw its 1,400 troops from Iraq. The Australian government has refused to bend to terrorists' demands.

"We are here for a humanitarian mission to gain the freedom of the Australian engineer and we hope, God willing, that within the next few hours to hear news about the hostage's (imminent) release," al-Hilaly told The Associated Press after attending a Friday prayer service at a Baghdad mosque. The Egyptian-born cleric said he made "indirect contacts" with the kidnappers, but provided no further details.


Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:41 am
Well now think about that folks. No invasion, the sanctions by order of the U.N. stay in place and over the next decade maybe another 50,000 die from malnutrition, lack of medicine, etc. The U.N. authorized the OFF program to allieviate that kind of suffering. And you think because it didn't alleviate that kind of suffering is the U.S.'s fault? How do you figure that?

Or we could lift the sanctions and not invade and signal AGAIN that the U.N. and USA are toothless and it's safe to do to anything to anybody.

So far as Saddam's 'crimes' are concerned, here is a relatively short summary of the case built against him in 2000 - note this is BEFORE GWB was elected president the first time, and this was BEFORE we got in there and uncovered the mass graves that number into the many tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. At least some Iraqis estimate more than a million murdered by Saddam Hussein.
http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:42 am
FreeDuck wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
None of the five reasons given asserted that Saddam's regime was involved in 9-11.


True. The UN would never have bought that. Only the American people could swallow one that big.

The American people were never asked to swallow that one.

ican wrote:
No WMD were found. Duelfer Commission verified this.

Thousands of conventional ordnance dumps in Iraq were discovered after the US invasion.

This means nothing. Laughing
"From your lips to God's ears."

ican wrote:
Duelfer Commission alleged evidence Saddam was contemplating resumption of development of WMD after UN sanctions were lifted.


ican wrote:

3. Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to resume development of new ready-to-use WMD;


We went from "concealing efforts" to "alleged"ly "contemplating resumption of development". How do you not laugh?
"T'ain't funny McGee." They are not mutually exclusive. That you appear to think so is laughable.

Quote:
A no-fly zone is not a no-control zone. Northeastern Iraq was under the control of al Qaeda. The US requested extradition of their leaders by the Saddam regime. Saddam's regime never responded to the US's requests.

No evidence has ever been presented that this is true.
Wrong! I for one heard Powell's speech to the UN on 2/5/2003, 43 days before we invaded Iraq 3/20/2003, wherein he disclosed those requests and did in fact thereby imply that request a third time. After Powell's speech, Saddam's regime alleged some of what Powell said was false, but they never claimed Powell's request for extradition of the al Qaeda's leaders was false

If it were true, why did we not invade from the northeast?
Laughing Iran's government allowed the AQ to transit Iran on their way to Iraq. Perhaps we should have invaded Iran too!

Quote:
On average, over 10,000 Iraqis were murdered per year by Saddam's regime after the Gulf War during the period 1991-2001. In 2002, C-Span among others showed a continuation of these murders: for example, the regime pushing people off bridges to their deaths. Total Iraqi deaths in 2003 were less than in 2002.


Again, nobody knows if your stats are true. Deaths in Iraq have not been counted since, according to all the sources I can find, 1987. I don't know how they are estimated without such data.
Go to the library and reference the appropriate Britannica Year Books 1992 through 2005. Each such yearbook references the previous year.

The sections of those books titled Britannica World Data, Iraq, Demogaphy, and Vital Statistics are what you clearly need to review. Unfortunately, www.britannica.com , their on-line subscription service, doesn't provide on-line access to these sections.

I subscibe to their old fashion, annual year book mail service, so I don't have to go to the library.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:44 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Not to mention all the children that died from our sanctions; which is always blamed by the right as Saddam's fault.


And the hundreds of thousands of children that will die from the radioactive and chemical flotsam and jetsom produced when their grand and great great grandfathers and grandmothers were killed utilzing the universal conscience cleansing 'collateral damage' clause.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 11:49 am
Our sanctions? We are the UN now?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 12:00 pm
We are part of the UN so we are "our." Trivial point all around.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 12:00 pm
Unfortunatly Bush could not wait so we went in unsanctioned by the u.n.. As in'illegal war'.
But I bet you already knew that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 12:01 pm
It's not trivial at all when the USA is blamed for the actions, decisions, or indecisions of the UN.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 12:05 pm
I guess you have heard more than me because I haven't heard anyone blaming the USA for the actions, decisions, or indecisions of the UN. It would stupid to do since, once again, we are part of the UN.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 12:06 pm
revel wrote:
We are part of the UN so we are "our." Trivial point all around.


Then Canada is equally to blame for the children dying in Iraq as a result of sanctions?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2005 12:09 pm
0 Replies
 
 

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