US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

Are you actually saying that our criminals are better than their criminals?

McTag wrote:

Are you actually saying that our criminals are better than their criminals?

Those would be your words, McT ...

... but are you actually saying that the isolated abuses that have been reported stemming from the US military's treatment of prisoners at Gitmo or abu Ghraib are on par with the cutting off of hands, tongues, limbs, heads, and mass killings under Saddam?

Ticomaya wrote:

McTag wrote:

Are you actually saying that our criminals are better than their criminals?

Those would be your words, McT ...

... but are you actually saying that the isolated abuses that have been reported stemming from the US military's treatment of prisoners at Gitmo or abu Ghraib are on par with the cutting off of hands, tongues, limbs, heads, and mass killings under Saddam?

Not my words. You said the victim at Abu Graib still had his head attached, as if this was a plus point. Don't try to wriggle out of that.

The "comparison" is your idea. Faults lie on both sides, and it depends on what gets reported, and what you choose to believe. I know that we don't occupy any moral high ground.

That's not even a logical comparison; and if you don't know why, I'll let somebody else explain it.

Tico, You've already answered the q.

CI, it's like arguing with a four year old ... never makes a point .... never has a fact to back his rhetoric .... it's totaly nonproductive ....

Gels, I do catch on sometimes - even in my old age. LOL

That's not even a logical comparison; and if you don't know why, I'll let somebody else explain it.

Tico, You've already answered the q.

Correct ... the comparison is mine. Yes, "faults" do lie on both sides. My point, in case you have yet failed to grasp it completely, is there is quite a bit of a difference between what Saddam and his henchmen did, and what the US military is doing. You may not feel the "moral ground" is high enough, but it is ABSOLUTELY higher than that which existed under Saddam, and you would be foolish to suggest otherwise.

Just a reminder of what the Iraqi people were coping with before we invaded.

http://istanbul.indymedia.org/news/2003/11/3440.php

The Tip of the Iceberg
Report on Vietnam 'Tiger Force' Atrocity Only the Tip of the Iceberg
by Nick Turse
November 14, 2003


The Toledo Blade articles represent some of the best reporting on a Vietnam War crime by any newspaper, during or since the end of the conflict. Unfortunately, the articles tell a story that was all too common. As a historian writing his dissertation on U.S. war crimes and atrocities during the Vietnam War, I have been immersed in just the sort of archival materials the Toledo Blade used in its pieces, but not simply for one incident but hundreds if not thousands of analogous events.

I can safely, and sadly, say that the "Tiger Force" atrocities are merely the tip of the iceberg in regard to U.S.-perpetrated war crimes in Vietnam. [/color]

However, much of the mainstream historical literature dealing with Vietnam War atrocities (and accompanying cover-ups and/or sham investigations), has been marginalized to a great extent - aside from obligatory remarks concerning the My Lai massacre, which is, itself, often treated as an isolated event.

Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent reporting of the Toledo Blade draws upon and feeds off this exceptionalist argument to a certain extent. As such, the true scope of U.S.-perpetrated atrocities is never fully addressed in the articles.

The men of the "Tiger Force" are labeled as "Rogue GIs" and the authors simply mention the that Army "conducted 242 war-crimes investigations in Vietnam, [that] a third were substantiated, leading to 21 convictions... according to a review of records at the National Archives" - facts of dubious value that obscure the scope and number of war crimes perpetrated in Vietnam and feed the exceptionalist argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force


Since the Toledo Blade story, the Army has re-opened the investigation, but has not been forthcoming with any additional information. The most recent status update was received by The Toledo Blade reporters on May 11, 2004, when Lt. Col. Pamela Hart stated she had been too busy responding to prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers in Iraq to check on the status of the Tiger Force case.

2004 Presidential primary contender, U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D., Cleveland) said he is waiting for findings from the latest Army Tiger Force probe, under which:

Col. William Condron, chief of criminal law for the judge advocate general's office, would determine how the original case was dropped and who ordered it dropped. Allegations were still secret, and prosecution risked publicity.
Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder, the Army's top law-enforcement officer, would decide whether to recommend prosecutions of anyone in the case, including any of the 18 former soldiers who originally have been found by Army investigators to have committed crimes. There is no statute of limitations on murder, and retired soldiers still could be prosecuted under a little known and rarely used legal stipulation.

Gelisgesti wrote:

And what they have been through since his capture .....

Head attached? ... Check.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031022/SRTIGERFORCE/110190168

They dropped grenades into underground bunkers where women and children were hiding - creating mass graves - and shot unarmed civilians, in some cases as they begged for their lives.

They frequently tortured and shot prisoners, severing ears and scalps for souvenirs.

During the Army's investigation of Tiger Force, 27 soldiers said the severing of ears from dead Vietnamese became an accepted practice. One reason: to scare the Vietnamese.

Platoon members strung the ears on shoe laces to wear around their necks, reports state.

Former platoon medic Larry Cottingham told investigators: "There was a period when just about everyone had a necklace of ears."

Records show soldiers began another gruesome practice: Kicking out the teeth of dead civilians for their gold fillings.

What's your point, JTT?

Ticomaya wrote:

What's your point, JTT?

I know you're thick but can you not read, Tico?

The very paladin of smug little E-men!