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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 06:15 am
Quote:
In emotionless English, Dearlove tells Blair and the others that President Bush has decided to remove Saddam Hussein by launching a war that is to be "justified by the conjunction of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction." Period. What about the intelligence? Dearlove adds matter-of-factly, "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/proof_bush_fixed_the_facts.php
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 06:23 am
Quote:
May 01, 2005

The secret Downing Street memo


SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY


DAVID MANNING
From: Matthew Rycroft
Date: 23 July 2002
S 195 /02

cc: Defence Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Attorney-General, Sir Richard Wilson, John Scarlett, Francis Richards, CDS, C, Jonathan Powell, Sally Morgan, Alastair Campbell

IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY

Copy addressees and you met the Prime Minister on 23 July to discuss Iraq.

This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.

John Scarlett summarised the intelligence and latest JIC assessment. Saddam's regime was tough and based on extreme fear. The only way to overthrow it was likely to be by massive military action. Saddam was worried and expected an attack, probably by air and land, but he was not convinced that it would be immediate or overwhelming. His regime expected their neighbours to line up with the US. Saddam knew that regular army morale was poor. Real support for Saddam among the public was probably narrowly based.

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

CDS said that military planners would brief CENTCOM on 1-2 August, Rumsfeld on 3 August and Bush on 4 August.

The two broad US options were:

(a) Generated Start. A slow build-up of 250,000 US troops, a short (72 hour) air campaign, then a move up to Baghdad from the south. Lead time of 90 days (30 days preparation plus 60 days deployment to Kuwait).

(b) Running Start. Use forces already in theatre (3 x 6,000), continuous air campaign, initiated by an Iraqi casus belli. Total lead time of 60 days with the air campaign beginning even earlier. A hazardous option.

The US saw the UK (and Kuwait) as essential, with basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus critical for either option. Turkey and other Gulf states were also important, but less vital. The three main options for UK involvement were:

(i) Basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus, plus three SF squadrons.

(ii) As above, with maritime and air assets in addition.

(iii) As above, plus a land contribution of up to 40,000, perhaps with a discrete role in Northern Iraq entering from Turkey, tying down two Iraqi divisions.

The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.


The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors. Regime change and WMD were linked in the sense that it was the regime that was producing the WMD. There were different strategies for dealing with Libya and Iran. If the political context were right, people would support regime change. The two key issues were whether the military plan worked and whether we had the political strategy to give the military plan the space to work.

On the first, CDS said that we did not know yet if the US battleplan was workable. The military were continuing to ask lots of questions.

For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary.

The Foreign Secretary thought the US would not go ahead with a military plan unless convinced that it was a winning strategy. On this, US and UK interests converged. But on the political strategy, there could be US/UK differences. Despite US resistance, we should explore discreetly the ultimatum. Saddam would continue to play hard-ball with the UN.

John Scarlett assessed that Saddam would allow the inspectors back in only when he thought the threat of military action was real.

The Defence Secretary said that if the Prime Minister wanted UK military involvement, he would need to decide this early. He cautioned that many in the US did not think it worth going down the ultimatum route. It would be important for the Prime Minister to set out the political context to Bush.

Conclusions:

(a) We should work on the assumption that the UK would take part in any military action. But we needed a fuller picture of US planning before we could take any firm decisions. CDS should tell the US military that we were considering a range of options.

(b) The Prime Minister would revert on the question of whether funds could be spent in preparation for this operation.

(c) CDS would send the Prime Minister full details of the proposed military campaign and possible UK contributions by the end of the week.


(d) The Foreign Secretary would send the Prime Minister the background on the UN inspectors, and discreetly work up the ultimatum to Saddam.

He would also send the Prime Minister advice on the positions of countries in the region especially Turkey, and of the key EU member states.

(e) John Scarlett would send the Prime Minister a full intelligence update.

(f) We must not ignore the legal issues: the Attorney-General would consider legal advice with FCO/MOD legal advisers.

(I have written separately to commission this follow-up work.)


MATTHEW RYCROFT

(Rycroft was a Downing Street foreign policy aide)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 06:36 am
What follows from this document is:

1) The BBC had it right - the Blair government did 'sex up' the evidence

2) The subsequent commission which exhonerated the Blair government and which led to the resignation of top BBC officials was - as most Britons thought - a whitewash

3) That Bush and his administration lied through their teeth regarding not just the evidence of WOMD but that there had been no firm decision to go to war

4) That the UN weapons inspectors, and other voices at that time who complained that the Bush administration was going to war no matter what, were accurate.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 07:16 am
Blatham, your posts are shocking, almost unbelievable, if we didn't know that we knew it all along.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 07:28 am
kara

Perhaps it is not so bad.

Perhaps 'democracy' actually means that we will simply trust those in positions of power regardless of all other considerations.

Perhaps 'democracy' means that truth is irrelevant.

Perhaps 'democacy' means that we have no real means to participate in the decisions and directions of our nation because it is better for us when we are misled.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:12 am
I believe there is nothing here that is shocking, and very little that is new. It has been clear from the start that the primary motivation for the intervention in Iraq was to decisively alter the historical trajectory of the states in the Gulf region and the Middle east. It is based on a strategic assessment that focuses on the growing crisis in the Moslem states that emerged from the Ottoman Empire (and a few others), their lack of political and economic development, and the growing cultural disaffection between them and the West. One may agree or disagree with that motivation and the strategies assessment on which it is based, as he wishes, but the evaluation of the specific details of the rationalization of the plan should be considered in that light.

Critics may say that there is no room left in the modern world for that type of thinking and, instead we should confine ourselves to a legalistic frame of reference in which such decisions should be made. One can make a rational argument on that basis if he is also willing to argue that such a policy is able to protect our freedom & security and prevent the emergence of far worse conflicts and confrontations. My view is that the lessons of history are pretty clear on this point, and we cannot depend on "international law" or the cooperative action of international bodies to contain or prevent tyranny or protect ourselves.

Former intelligence "analysts" who rise up in self-important fury because political leaders took some action that was inconsistent with their "analysis" of some details of the situation should be regarded with the healthy skepticism borne of their repeated failures to get things right. These types generally have an inflated concept of their importance in such matters and an inadequate memory for their many failures.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 10:48 am
Quote:
has been clear from the start that the primary motivation for the intervention in Iraq was to decisively alter the historical trajectory of the states in the Gulf region and the Middle east.


It is neither our right, nor our responsibility, to do this. The short-sighted policies your leaders have adopted will come back to bite us all, George.

You would have us go back to the days of might-makes-right amongst nations; because you cannot fault another nation for acting in the same self-interest with which we have acted; and therefore you invite war upon us. Which I'm not big on.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 11:10 am
good info Blatham thanks

My mate the minister....actually Bill Rammell MP is a junior foreign office minister, reporting directly to Jack Straw and responsible (among other places) for Diego Garcia.

Yesterday I left it until the last moment to vote. I've been out canvassing and leafleting for the Labour Party, but I myself just could not work up the enthusiasm to vote for Tony Blair knowing I had been lied to regarding the build up to war. I thought ok you can mislead people about unemployment figures or inflation etc. but you cant mislead the people about the true reasons for the necessity for war. Its just too big an issue.

I did vote labour in the end with about 10 minutes to spare, but made sure my message got across.

Now as it happens there has been two recounts here. The returning officer sent the tellers home for a rest, they were too tired to count again. So Harlow is still to declare, (tomorrow) and my ballot paper will come in for a lot of scrutiny...excellent...except if Bill loses!!

Check out news for Harlow (bbc is good site) for latest info
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 11:20 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

It is neither our right, nor our responsibility, to do this. The short-sighted policies your leaders have adopted will come back to bite us all, George.

You would have us go back to the days of might-makes-right amongst nations; because you cannot fault another nation for acting in the same self-interest with which we have acted; and therefore you invite war upon us. Which I'm not big on.

Cycloptichorn


We have never left the days of might-makes-right among nations. To assume otherwise ignores the history of the last century, and even the last few decades. This is an illusion of the fiirst order - we have not yet seen the end of history. The 'civilized' forces of legality were of no assistance to the people of Bosnia during the Serb ethnic cleansing, and they are of no beneficial use to the victims of Islamist terrorism wherever it occurs.

Other nations will consider attacking us or seizing things of vital importance to us if they perceive that we are weak. If we are strong they will be deterred. It's as simple as that.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 11:47 am
georgeob 1 said:

Quote:
My view is that the lessons of history are pretty clear on this point, and we cannot depend on "international law" or the cooperative action of international bodies to contain or prevent tyranny or protect ourselves.


The long, long view of history would seem to suggest, what with changes in demographics and sheer volume of population amongst such demographics, now and in the future; is that we appear to be entering a period in which neither law, intelligence, learning from the past, enlightment, working for the common good and needs of the long-term, modern values/ethics, etc., necessarily have anything to do with what will be happening in the world.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 11:53 am
sumac wrote:

The long, long view of history would seem to suggest, what with changes in demographics and sheer volume of population amongst such demographics, now and in the future; is that we appear to be entering a period in which neither law, intelligence, learning from the past, enlightment, working for the common good and needs of the long-term, modern values/ethics, etc., necessarily have anything to do with what will be happening in the world.


This statement could, with equal validity, have been made in the 4th, 7th, 14th, 15th, etc. centuries.

Louis XIVs wars in Europe did nothing to enlighten people enough to avoid the Seven ye4ar's war that followed, or the revolutions that followed that, or the napoleonic wars that followed them, or the War iof 1872, or WWI, or WWI, or The Clld war.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 12:03 pm
I'm sure that you are correct.

But I am also viewing, with alarm, the shifting of important decision-making, power, might, etc.; to those who do not necessarily have the best interests of the world in mind.

If someone of the nature of Osama bin Laden can affect such chaos and change on a global scale, then we are in for a rough ride indeed.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 12:25 pm
george
Quote:
I believe there is nothing here that is shocking, and very little that is new. It has been clear from the start that the primary motivation for the intervention in Iraq was to decisively alter the historical trajectory of the states in the Gulf region and the Middle east.


That is either a lie you understand you are making or it is an example of how memory can be altered through an inability to confront uncomfortable truths. It was NOT made clear from the start that Bush nor Blair had this in mind. That is what this document reveals, that the justification (the rationale passed on to the citizens, seeking their consent for war) would be extant WOMD and nuclear capability ready for near instant delivery AND that Bush had decided to attack Iraq while lying to you and everyone else that no such decision had been made.

To be fair, much of this was suspected from the start, but NOT by you nor the other supporters of the war here. Or, you were lying then too. Sorry to be blunt, but I'm sick and tired of the bullshit and this endless sequence of lies and distortions.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 01:20 pm
You are dead wrong with respect to my professed rationale. Take a look back at my posts on this subject well over a year ago. It was then my expressed view that this was indeed the primary reason and justification for our intervention in Iraq. So I not only suspected it - i professed it as one of the main reasons for it all.

I agree this was at most a minor theme in the political rationalization offered by our government and, more to the point in the UK by P.M. Blair. He unfortunately headed a government and a public mind that has bought in to the absurd notion that history has indeed ended and we have somehow entered a new world in which "international law" will protect us all from things that go bump in the night. (Unfortunately International Law didn't do much for the victims in Bosnia, Rwanda or the victims of Islamist terrorism anywhere.)

The sad fact is that Blair felt (probably correctly) he was unable to act without expressed UN authority, and Bush made the unwise choice of going along with it, thereby limiting our rationale to the WMD matter, trivializing the whole argument. Both Blair and bush underestimated the lengths to which the French would go to oppose us. In retrospect we would likely have been better off going it alone, and for our own reasons.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 01:57 pm
"In retrospect we would likely have been better off going it alone, and for our own reasons."

do you really mean this, or is this just frustration?

what I would wish is for the neo con dreams to come true. By now a rapid and joyful transition towards liberal democracy. Fat chance.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 02:05 pm
Just as the "democracy for the poor, oppressed Iraqis" song and dance was no part of anybody's justification for the war before it began, so the neo-con agenda, as clearly outlined by the PNAC before the Shrub was ever elected, is now advanced by O'George. However, the boys and girls at PNAC don't adduce long-winded historical rationale as O'George has here--they simply make reference to some chimerical program of the cowboy Ray-gun.

For those willing to make the effort, it is possible to see if O'George was making such a statement a year ago. All one need do is to visit The US, the UN & Iraq: A Bibliography.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 03:37 pm
Going back seems a fine idea. Let's see what's there.

dec 9, 2002 blatham to georgeob
Quote:
paragraph 4 - of course, but that skips neatly over the morally reprehensible act of being disengenous (deceitful) to the populace about why Iraq ought to be attacked. 9-11 being a handy motivator, let's toss that out as the reason. If you'll recall, that is what happened.


george jan 11, 2003 (about the time Bush was warning of an Iraqi nuke attack on the US)
Quote:
Both Iraq and North Korea present serious dangers of aggressive war to their neighbors and to other powers, the USA included.
link

george jan 19, 2003
Quote:
We know that Saddam Hussein has invested heavily in the development of the isotope separation and shaped charge triggering methods required to produce a nuclear weapon. We know that he has the ability to produce ballistic missiles with which to deliver them. We know he exercises absolute control over his country and is therefore not particularly subject to the inducements and persuasion that even a modicum of popular democracy might bring. We know that if the sanctions are lifted the oil wealth he will rapidly accumulate will quickly enable him to fill whatever gaps may remain and do more dangerous things as well.


blatham to george jan 28, 2003
Quote:
But my protest here was simply regarding the disengenuousness at trying to suggest to the public that Iraq was in some way responsible for 9-11. Because people were so moved by that event, it was an act of opportunism and deceit, and I think it very dangerous for leaders to do this. These guys shouldn't be lying about important stuff, because then the citizens really do lose their connection to truth and to reasoned decision making.
lnk

george jan 28, 2003
Quote:
I have little doubt our intelligence has already detected some connections between them (Iraq and al Qaeda)
same page

for fun...george on feb 6, 2003
Quote:
The so-called Christian Coalition has lost most of its capable political leaders and most of its clout as well. Its high water point in our politics occurred about six years ago. I'm not sure what evidence leads you to suggest "... the religious right has gained increasing power...".
link

george feb 14
Quote:
Asherman wrote:
Both Iraq and the DPRK are a clear and present danger to world security. It really probably matters little which is dealt with first. If anything the North Korean situation only makes the move to neutralize Saddam more quickly. Cicero has argued tirelessly for eternal containment of Saddam, North Korea is one of the several reasons that strategy should not be followed.

Excellent point, and one I have not seen cited here or anywhere else (wish I said it myself). Let me repeat it for emphasis.
link

george feb 13
Quote:
Both Iraq and North Korea represent serious dangers to the U.S. I doubt that a theoretical debate concerning which is worse would produce much that is useful.
link

george feb 24
Quote:
The obvious U.S. motivation for the Iraqi confrontation, and the stated motivation of our government, is to enforce the agreement which ended the hostilities in 1992, following Iraq's unprovoked invasion of Kuwait.

This agreement commits Iraq to divest itself of all WMD and long-range missiles. It is this agreement that makes the possession of nuclear weapons by Iraq different from their posession by all the other countries noted in earlier posts on this thread.

lijnk

george may 30
Quote:
Like Phoenix, I believe the WMD issue is just a red herring.

I believe we didn't forcibly topple Saddam in 1992 (1) because the coalition then would have flown apart had we entered Iraq in a big way after driving Saddam's forces out of Kuwait; and (2) because we still saw a need for some counter force to a still very radical Iran. Very likely we hoped or expected that he would be overthrown soon after his defeat, but that didn't happen.

By early 2001 the international pressures to remove the economic sanctions on Iraq were increasing - it was just a matter of time before they would be lifted. The U.S. had to consider life with Iraq (and Saddam) after the oil and the money valves were reopened. Armed with $10-$20 billion of oil revenues per year, Saddam could do a great deal of harm. Soon after 9/11 the Bush administration announced its intent to bring about a "regime change" there. None of this was exclusively centered on the WMD issue, though it was indeed a factor.

We made WMD the issue in our effort to get Security Council resolution 1441. It was the very legalistic process required in the Security Council by nations that, for their own reasons opposed our aims in Iraq, that made the whole thing rise and fall on WMD - even though that was never the sole reason for our intervention.

Why did we intervene? Many likely reasons; (1) An example for other outlaw nations, (2) to change the balance of terror in the Mideast; (3) to foster a modern secular government in the one nation in the Arab world likely to thrive under such a system and provide a model for the others; (4) to lessen our dependence on a failing Saudi regime; (5) to remove a major player in the international WMD market and a potential host for terrorists. (6)to remove a cruel tyrant from the backs of the Iraqi people.

I don't think we have really added many new recruits for al Queda. With those so disposed we already had nothing to lose. If we could create a more positive model in the Arab world and, in the process achieve a breakthrough in the Palestine/Israel matter, we will have much to gain.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 04:17 pm
I don't know how you guys find this stuff so quickly, but thank you Blatham for finding examples that support my point.

I do believe the WMD matter was a red herring, an argument of convenience, valuable simply because it was the only one our "friends" on the Security Council would accept, and we need their action as a political cover for PM Blair.

I'm not sure the real argument would have made the grade with the American public either, but after 9/11 we were a more willing audience than evidently were the British people. All governments use deception in rationalizing - and in carrying out - their wars. It is the results of the war, not the elegance and acceptance of the arguments for starting them that are what counts in history. Certainly FDR used a good deal of public deception to induce the American people to get into yet another European war.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 04:54 pm
Al Qaeda was/is a self declared agressor against the US. The governments in whose countries al Qaeda was/is based are accomplices to this agressor. It is al Qaeda and the governments in whose countries al Qaeda was/is based that must be stopped in our own self-defense.

Nothing the Bush&Adm or the Blair&Adm intended or didn’t intend, said or didn’t say, conspired or didn't conspire, or otherwise did or didn’t do can change these facts. The truth of the existence or non-existence of ready-to-use "WMD" in Iraq, or of a "link" between Iraq and al Qaeda cannot change these facts.

We have no other choice but to win in Iraq. We must correct our mistakes and get on with it. It is not a question whether we can win; it is only a question of how and when we can win.

The US invasion of Iraq and the US invasion of Afghanistan were both pre-emptive wars by US declaration and by standard logic. Al Qaeda declared war against Americans in four different fatwas in 1992, 1996, 1998, and 2004. These fatwas (except the 2004 fatwa) and the war they repeatedly declared were actually perpetrated against Americans prior to our invasions of Afghanistan in October 2001 and Iraq in March 2003.

Quote:
The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States Report, i.e., The 9-11 Commission Report alleged, 8/21/2004 in CHAPTERS 1, 2.4, 2.5, 3.1: Before we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, al Qaeda et al perpetrated the following mass murders of Americans:
1. 2/1993 WTC in NYC--6 dead Americans;
2. 11/1995 Saudi National Guard Facility in Riyadh--5 dead Americans;
3. 6/1996 Khobar Towers in Dhahran--19 dead Americans;
4. 8/1998 American Embassy in Nairobi--12 dead Americans;
5. 12/2000 Destroyer Cole in Aden--17 dead Americans;
6. 9/2001 WTC in NYC, Pentagon, Pennsylvania Field--approximately 1500 dead Americans plus approximately 1500 dead non-Americans.


Finally the US attempted to pre-empt further attacks by al Qaeda and remove al Qaeda bases by invading and replacing the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq, because of the failures of the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq to remove al Qaeda bases from their respective countries.

The real objective (all the contrary political propaganda not withstanding) of the invasion of Afghanistan was removal of the al Qaeda training bases in Afghanistan and the replacement of the Taliban regime with a government that would not allow al Qaeda bases to be re-established in Afghanistan once the US left Afghanistan.

The real objective (all the contrary political propaganda not withstanding) of the invasion of Iraq was removal of the al Qaeda training bases in Iraq and the replacement of the Saddam regime with a government that would not allow al Qaeda bases to be re-established in Iraq once the US left Iraq.

President Bush announced to the nation, Tuesday night, 9/11/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "harbor" terrorists. President Bush announced to the nation, to Congress and to the rest of the world, Thursday night, 9/20/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "support" terrorists.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 05:39 pm
Intellectual and egotistical masturbation.

Clicking out of here.
0 Replies
 
 

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