US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

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The road to Abu Ghraib...
...is paved with an over-extended military. Take this blogger/soldier for example, who wrote "Gotta love the MOTHER FU(KIN MARINE CORPS" in the face of a third tour, just 2 months back from a second. Neit writes: "If I have to go I'm gonna fu(k some **** up going nuts to get it outta my system before I go just to make sure this time I don't miss a thing if you know what I mean well atleast as best you can if you've never had to deal with something this FU(KING HUGE placed in your mind as such a burden that you're whole mentality just shifts cause of that fear I wish you all who don't have to deal with a life like that could jump into my head for a second you'd wanna go fu(king nuts too! ha ha ha ha...LET'S GO EAT SOME BABIES AND SHOOT SOME ROO'S" (Neit Zero via Metafilter)
Posted by Evan on May 18, 2005 @ 2:52PM.

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Top Republican implodes

. WE invented Al Qaeda.

Time as Independent Counsel
In 1994 Starr was appointed by a three-judge panel to continue the Whitewater investigation, replacing Robert Fiske, who had been specially appointed by the Attorney General prior to the re-enactment of the Independent Counsel law. His powers were very broad, and he was given the right to subpoena nearly anyone he felt may have information relevant to the scandal.

Though his judicial reputation earned him initial popularity in the investigation, Starr's service soon turned controversial, especially after his powers were further expanded to investigate the Monica Lewinsky sex scandal. Republicans saw him as incompetent and too trusting of the president. Democrats saw him as a repressed political zealot on a mission to remove Clinton. This controversy threatened to turn the prosecutor into the prosecuted when Starr's office acknowledged that it had leaked grand jury testimony in violation of Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6(e). Starr later regretted his role in the Lewinsky investigation, saying "the most fundamental thing that could have been done differently" would have been for somebody else to have investigated the matter.

And, how did "we" invent Al Qaeda?

Quote, "...our success in Iraq..." is the oxymoron statement of the year~! LOL

I highly doubt that, Ican.

AQ is a mindset, not an organized group. WE invented Al Qaeda. It doesn't take a huge amount of organization to get stuff done from there POV.
It did take a huge organization for al Qaeda to get its things done. Perhaps you think them incompetent in that regard. Perhaps you should offer to consult with them to find out why they thought they needed more than you think they did.

For example,

Osama Bin Laden (the only one who matters, btw, and one who isn't in Iraq) can spread instructions out to 5 people, who recruit 10 people each in 5 different countries that they go to. We certainly can't go around invading every single country with AQ recruits in it.
You know where bin Laden is?

We invaded two countries whose governments hosted al Qaeda recruiting and training bases and camps. Make a list of those you think we should invade next as soon as we are able.

There is a large amount of terrorism that can be accomplished with very little or no training. ESPECIALLY if the 'cell' method is repeated a few times. THen you are talking about hundreds of operatives spread across dozens of states. And the vast majority of this can be done 'black,' that is, with no outward signs whatsoever that anything is happening to the respective gov'ts of the places they are in.
Imaginative theory, but not so far supported by the facts.

Fact is bin Laden, the leader of al Qaeda, did infact invest lots of money in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Iraq to establish recruiting, and/or initial training bases and camps in these states for their believers. Fact is the 20 believers who were recruited to mass murder Americans 9/11/2001 in the USA, were recruited and initially trained in one or more of these states. Thousands of such believers have been recruited and trained in one or more of these locations.

Osama bin Laden wrote:

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
...

The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States in its Report 8/21/2004, in CHAPTERS 1, 2.4, 2.5, 3.1, before we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, about al Qaeda perpetrating mass murders of Americans in the US wrote:

...
2. 2/1993 WTC in NYC--6 dead Americans;
...
6. 9/11/2001 WTC in NYC, Pentagon, Pennsylvania Field--approximately 1500 dead Americans plus approximately 1500 dead non-Americans.

Quote:

President Bush announced to the nation, Tuesday night, 9/11/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "harbor" terrorists. President Bush announced to the nation, to Congress and to the rest of the world, Thursday night, 9/20/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "support" terrorists.

October 7, 2001: Start of invasion of Afghanistan.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org ) wrote:

Islamic Movement in Kurdistan
[i.e., northeastern Iraq]
...
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
...
Ansar al-Islam (... Supporters or Partisans of Islam) is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
...
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.

October 20, 2003: Start of invasion of Iraq.

Who is the real enemy and who are the real enemy's real accomplices (both knowing and unknowing)?

Osama bin Laden wrote:

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, 23 February 1998
...
On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."
...

Only after they were recruited and initially trained, did these believers spred like viruses throughout the world to perpetrate death of Americans and their allies.

Why, again, is there the need for a state sponsor? For a safe haven? It certainly makes things easier for AQ but it isn't neccessary in the slightest.
Not necessary So why did they seek and utilize several state facilities anyway to achieve their ends? Bin Laden doesn't buy your theory any more than I do.

Cycloptichorn

I gotta get me some of Ican's facts, do they come in cereal boxes or out of those gum-ball machines?
I been getting mine in fortune cookies and they're just totally beige.

Ican, we went into Afghanistan for a very specific reason that was easily understood and accepted. Bin Laden was/is ahead of the group that carried out the 9/11 attack. We asked the taliban to hand him over and they refused. We attacked in an effort to get bring him to justice. I approved the effort.

Iraq is not comparable to Afghanistan except that both are in the same part of the world and are largely Muslims.

From what I have been gleaning from various answers the reason we decided on Iraq verses other troubled spots in the world was basically a matter of Iraq being the one least likely to offer the most danger or resistance to us because they did not have nuclear weapons or close to getting some as some other countries like North Korea.
I think what you are gleaning is probably at least partially right. In addition to Afghanistan, we had Syria, Iraq, and Iran hosting al Qaeda. We probably did pick Iraq for the reasons you gleaned.

Forgive if I think this is the opposite of what the administration was telling or hinting to (mushroom clouds...) us when they were campaigning for the war.
What is there for me to forgive? The administration started of right when:

Quote:

President Bush announced to the nation, Tuesday night, 9/11/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that “harbor” terrorists. President Bush announced to the nation, to Congress and to the rest of the world, Thursday night, 9/20/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that “support” terrorists.

But subsequently they allowed themselves, or chose, to get suckered into the damn WMD and nuclear red herrings in their efforts to obtain an additional superfluous UN resolution that was highly probable to be vetoed by the French and Russians. We wasted over a year on that stuff.