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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 08:45 am
Quote:
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 09:58 am
JTT, Thanks for your post. It reveals how incompetent Bush really is, and doesn't understand history by any stretch of the imagination. His saving grace is the fact that most Americans are just as clueless.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 10:21 am
Just watched George Galloway blast the senate committee. As I said a few days ago, I ended up feeling sorry for them.

Schoolboys
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 10:39 am
Well, since over half of the kickbacks paid to Saddam Hussein's regime went to the US, Galloway could easily act like "an accuser not an accused".
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:03 am
Quote, "...Galloway could easily act like "an accuser not an accused." That's the American tactic used by both government and individuals when they really have no justification or legal way out.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:06 am
Wish I had C-Span, or even CNN, at times like these.

I think that Steve is correct on a number of points. There is grave, grave danger in extremision in any form, in the service of any goal. That new law, if enacted, is opening up a huge pail of worms.

There is nothing new under the sun or moon in the pursuit of war. No matter what the form of form - anti-terrorism or Victorian troops aligned against each other. Nothing. Bible? Toran? Your momma?

Nothing.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:07 am
Hot damn . . .

YO MAMA ! ! !



heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .


okbye
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:07 am
JTT wrote:
Quote:


http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1081

Why Bush Can't Solve Nuclear Crisis in North Korea


To cover his lies and mistakes in Iraq, Bush is now hawking “freedom and democracy,” which will fail in North Korea like it is failing in Iraq.
By Gerald Rellick


George Bush’s approach to dealing with the nuclear crisis in North Korea was put on display during the president's recent trip to Russia to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of the end of World War II, a war that cost the Russians a mind-staggering 27 million dead, more than any other country in the war, friend or foe.

No, Bush didn’t mention North Korea, but what he did say allows us to understand his ideology-driven and inept approach to dealing with North Korea. Before flying on to Moscow, Bush stopped in the Baltic country of Latvia, where he proceeded to chastise the Russians for annexing Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia at the end of the WWII, calling Russia’s domination of Eastern Europe “one of the greatest wrongs of history.” He then criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin for his “retreat from democracy.” And for closers, Bush took on Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, suggesting that the 1945 Yalta Conference agreements were a form of appeasement that gave the green light to Stalin’s annexations in the Baltics. Bush went so far as to compare the Yalta accords to the Hitler-Stalin pact of 1939.

Jacob Heilbrunn, writing in the Los Angeles Times, said that Bush’s words were “a cause for shame” here in the United States:

“The slander against Roosevelt…[and] the claim that Roosevelt betrayed Eastern Europe at Yalta, and set the stage for 40 years of Soviet domination, is an old right-wing canard. By repeating it, and by publicly charging that the Yalta agreement was in the ‘unjust tradition’ of Hitler's deal with Stalin, Bush was simply engaging in cheap historical revisionism. His glib comments belong to the Ann Coulter school of history.”

When we look at the historical record surrounding Latvia, Bush words are even more embarrassing. Latvia is hardly a show piece of respectability as far as WWII is concerned. The Latvians collaborated openly with the Nazis, probably more than any other Eastern European country. According to Mark Ames in an article in the Nation:

“Ninety-six percent of Latvia's Jews were killed in the Holocaust, one of Europe's highest rates and only made possible by enthusiastic local collaboration. Latvia also had one of the highest per capita recruitment rates into special [German] SS legions, whose veterans are revered as freedom fighters.’ Today Latvia is the only country in Europe to host annual SS veteran processions commemorating the day the divisions were formed.”

And a LA Times editorial strongly criticized Bush for “needlessly antagonizing Russia,” noting that “the West needs Russia as a friend, not an enemy,” particularly to gain “Russian assistance in destroying dangerous nuclear stocks and in fighting [nuclear] proliferation.”

So why would Bush do this -- walk into the Russian capital and admonish the Russians over a very old and sore issue when the event was intended to be a somber and respectful commemoration of the defeat of Nazi Germany? What was Bush hoping to gain? And what does this have to do with North Korea and the nuclear crisis there?

Democracy Marches Forward

When it became clear to everyone, including the most diehard Bush supporters, that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and no connection between Iraq and 9/11, Bush was stuck with his one obviously phony rationale -- that it was really all about democracy -- democracy in Iraq following the forcible removal of Saddam Hussein. And while we’re at it, let’s have democracy for everyone in the Middle East. And why stop there? Why not democracy for everyone on the planet?

Just like the traveling medicine man in the old West selling his snake oil to cure all ailments -- rheumatism, constipation, dandruff – so George Bush is selling his brand of snake oil, freedom and democracy. It cures all of a country’s needs -- poverty, hunger, disease: you name it and George Bush’s democracy cures it.

So, don’t worry about practical matters like terrorism and nuclear proliferation, for just as a Scripture analogy might tell us, all these good things will come to pass once we have democracy in our hearts and in our lives. Yes, it’s true that North Korea has much plutonium for nuclear bombs and for proliferation to terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda, but before we can sit down with the North Koreans in bilateral talks, they must first address their “human rights violations.” And we might even want to throw in some veiled hints at “regime change,” just to keep them on their toes.

The Bush administration conveniently ignores that it was bilateral talks between the Clinton administration and North Korea in 1994 that defused the first Korean nuclear crisis (For a discussion of background on the North Korean crisis, see my previous article in this series.)

This “freedom and democracy” issue lies at the heart of the American proposal to denuclearize North Korea. The other countries involved in the six-party negotiations on the North Korean issue -- South Korea, Japan, China and Russia -- have distanced themselves from the U.S. policy. Following the latest shutdown of North Korea’s nuclear rector at Pyongyang, the Bush administration asked China to intervene and to threaten North Korea with economic sanctions since it is the largest provider to the impoverished country. China bluntly refused, saying, “"We stand for resolving the issue through dialogue. We are not in favor of exerting pressure or imposing sanctions. We believe such measures are not necessarily effective."

And South Korea, the country that has the greatest to lose or gain in a confrontation with the North, has broken a long standing precedent of not openly disagreeing with an American president. In a harsh rebuke of George Bush, the former South Korean president Kim Dae Jung, speaking at a reception for former President Bill Clinton, said, "If Mr. Clinton had had one more year in office, the nuclear and missile issues would have been resolved."

South Korea’s new president, Roh Moo Hyun, has been understandably more cautious in his remarks, but no less revealing. In a speech in Los Angeles in November 2004, Roh stated that there was “some justification” for North Korean claims to a right to develop nuclear weapons and missiles in order to “protect itself.” Roh was not more specific but his remarks were seen by many as referring to the Bush administration’s threats of preemptive war and regime change in North Korea. Bush was said to be personally miffed by Roh’s comments.

In a visit to Berlin in April 2005, as the latest crisis worsened, Roh made clear South Korea’s intentions to walk an independent path if necessary and seek a peaceful resolution of the crisis. Said Roh:

"We have intentions to continue to provide assistance to North Korea without destabilizing North Korea in the process of the [their] pursuit of reform and openness. We think North Korea is striving to seek reform and openness in the way China and Vietnam are pursuing them."

Behind all the Bush administration bluster and bombast lies a rationale: George Bush is trapped in his own lies and is struggling to legitimize the war in Iraq and to save his presidency from the failure and disgrace that history will almost certainly judge it to be. By pushing freedom and democracy at every turn, then maybe -- just maybe -- Bush will convince the world that the invasion of Iraq and the ongoing bloody occupation was really all about spreading democracy.

After four years of accomplishing nothing and doing great harm, Bush is desperate, and democracy is his “Hail Mary” pass. But the bomb he is throwing may, in this case, be nuclear tipped.


A more erudite, complete distortion of reality is hard to find. But JTT, I expect that you will nonetheless find it.

www.m-w.com
Quote:
Main Entry: er·u·di·tion
Pronunciation: "er-&-'di-sh&n, "er-y&-
Function: noun
: extensive knowledge acquired chiefly from books : profound, recondite, or bookish learning
synonym see KNOWLEDGE


I suppose recondite learning includes pamphlets. Laughing
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:16 am
"I think that Steve is correct on a number of points."

Thanks Sumac

You wouldn't like to elaborate a little, perhaps

"Steve is absolutely correct on all the points he so eloquently makes always" Smile
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:24 am
Holding judgment until all points are made.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 11:38 am
Very wise Sumac
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 12:27 pm
would anyone like to respond

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51783&highlight=
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 12:37 pm
World Islamic Front Statement

Osama bin Laden wrote:
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
23 February 1998


Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
...


Quote:
The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States Report, i.e., The 9-11 Commission Report alleged, 8/21/2004 in CHAPTERS 1, 2.4, 2.5, 3.1: Before we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, al Qaeda et al perpetrated the following mass murders of Americans:
...
4. 8/1998 American Embassy in Nairobi--12 dead Americans;
5. 12/2000 Destroyer Cole in Aden--17 dead Americans;
6. 9/11/2001 WTC in NYC, Pentagon, Pennsylvania Field--approximately 1500 dead Americans plus approximately 1500 dead non-Americans.


Quote:
President Bush announced to the nation, Tuesday night, 9/11/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "harbor" terrorists. President Bush announced to the nation, to Congress and to the rest of the world, Thursday night, 9/20/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that "support" terrorists.


October 7, 2001: Start of invasion of Afghanistan.

Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org

Islamic Movement in Kurdistan
[i.e., in northeastern Iraq]
...
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
...
Ansar al-Islam (... Supporters or Partisans of Islam) is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
...
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.


March 20, 2003: Start of invasion of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 12:44 pm
Osama bin Laden posts on these boards?

Truly we are honoured.

but whats your point Ican?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 01:02 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
... whats your point Ican?

Who is the real enemy and who are the real enemy's real accomplices (both knowing and unknowing)?

Osama bin Laden wrote:
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, 23 February 1998
...
On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."
...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 01:53 pm
thats a good question

i really dont know who is the real enemy

or even what the enemy is

maybe the enemy is the people

and we are the tyrants

seriously i have no idea

plutocrats

islamists

neoconservatives

communists

jihadists

who do you think constitute the enemy?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 02:21 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
...i really dont know who is the real enemy ...
Laughing

I cannot believe you, because of your signature!
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Its time to fight Fanatical Irrational Religious Extremism with Factual Intelligible Rational Explanation.


On second thought, I may have misinterpreted your signature. Shocked

I thought your signature meant that you believed "Fanatical Irrational Religious Extremism" is the enemy, and that "it's time to fight" that enemy with "Factual Intelligible Rational Explanation." I thought that you would agree that Fanatical Islamic Extremism" is one such enemy. You know the people. They're the ones intensionally murdering civilians just like they promised to do in their several fatwahs, one of which I excerpted and posted above. Perhaps I'm wrong.

If I'm correct, then I have a question. When in the history of humankind was "Fanatical Irrational Religious Extremism" defeated by "Factual Intelligible Rational Explanation."

I note the acronyms of your possible perception of the enemy and your method of fighting that enemy are FIRE. Interesting! Are you proposing to fight the first kind of FIRE with the second kind of FIRE?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 02:58 pm
"American Soldier", Chapter 10, page 421, by General Tommy Franks; Published 7/1/2004 by HarperCollins Publishers, Inc.; (hardcover)"

General Tommy Franks in [u]American Soldier[/u], 7/1/2004 wrote:
Chapter Epilogue, page 541—Many of the violent young men on Iraq’s streets and highways—planting mines and booby traps, firing RPGs at truck convoys, dropping mortar rounds into police stations, driving suicide car bombs, assassinating clerics and aid workers—are leftover Baathists who already had blood on their hands and face a grim future in a free Iraq.

Chapter Epilogue, page 555 and 556—I am often asked, “Do you think the price America is paying in blood in the War on Terrorism is justified?”

“Of course” I always answer. “I defer to no man in my love of troopers; I still consider myself a soldier. But it’s often been necessary in our nation’s history to fight for our freedoms, and it’s never been more necessary than today. It seems to me that fighting terrorism has more to do with our kids and grandkids than with us.”
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 07:41 pm
Civil war may have begun in Iraq.

Who is the enemy? I thought Pogo made that quite clear. "We have seen the enemy, and he is us."
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2005 07:42 pm
Or was that Bugs Bunny?
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