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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:32 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
McG, There ain't no such animal as "temporary" when it comes to presidential power. Once a precedence is set and not challenged by congress, the position of president no longer has any checks and balances.

It is illegal for Congress to attempt to supplant in any respect the Constitution as the supreme law of the land.

It is illegal for the President to attempt to supplant in any respect the Constitution as the supreme law of the land.

It is illegal for the Supreme Court to attempt to supplant in any respect the Constitution as the supreme law of the land.

The only legal way the Constitution can be supplanted in some respect is for it to be amended in strict accord with its Article V.

Once an illegal precedence is set by the President and not challenged by Congress or the Supreme Court, the position of president no longer has sufficient checks and balances.

Once an illegal precedence is set by the Congress and not challenged by the President or the Supreme Court, the Congress no longer has sufficient checks and balances.

Once an illegal precedence is set by the Supreme Court and not challenged by Congress or the President, the Supreme Court no longer has sufficient checks and balances.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:34 pm
icant, You may have something there, but we are talking about this president and his illegal wiretaps on American citizens.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:37 pm
revel wrote:
In an effort to get this thread back to Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051231/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Two more U.S. soldiers were killed in Iraq as the year wound down Friday, putting the American military death toll at 841 so far — just five short of 2004's lost lives despite political progress and dogged efforts to quash the insurgency.

Violence continued on Saturday with gunmen raiding a house near Iskandariyah, 30 miles south of Baghdad, and killing five members of a Sunni family, army Col. Hussein Sheyaa said. A roadside bomb also exploded in Baghdad, killing five policemen, 1st Lt. Nadum Nuaman said.

In addition, five members of the Iraqi Islamic party died when a roadside bomb exploded near their headquarters in Al-Khalis, 10 miles east of Baqouba, police said.

Revel, what fact or facts, principle or principles, question or questions about Iraq do you wish to discuss or debate?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:40 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Talk about non-sequitur, trying to equate bodyparts to electronic messaging just doesn't cut it.

Most people (I would assume almost 100 percent) don't give a rat's ass if you go to the toilet or have sex. Those things may seem to be "private" in your world, but I got news for you; we all do it. Secret? Get a life!

AGAIN, YOU MISCHARACTERIZED WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:47 pm
ican't, No need to shout. Get ahold of yourself.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:49 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
icant, You may have something there, but we are talking about this president and his illegal wiretaps on American citizens.

No, we are talking about:
(1) Whether or not the wiretaps authorized by the president are illegal;
(2) Whether or not any branch of the government is authorized to supplant the Constitution;
(3) Whether or not any branch of the government is authorized to supplant the powers the Constitution grants to any other branch.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:50 pm
Here it is in a nutshell - posted by Debra in another thread on this subject:

Debra wrote:
While I appreciate your attempt to play devil's advocate in attempt to paint this dire dilemma that the President supposedly faced when he ordered the mass suspicionless electronic surveillance of the American people, you have created a FALSE DILEMMA. The amorphous war on terrorism does not require any sitting President to sell his soul to the devil.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:52 pm
If you continue to refuse FISA as the law of the land, there is nothing that will convince you that Bush broke the law.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 05:59 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican't, No need to shout. Get ahold of yourself.

I disagree! When YOU REPEATEDLY MISCHARACTERIZE WHAT I ACTUALLY WRITE there is certainly a need for me to shout!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 06:06 pm
careful with the RED , it might be misinterpreted ... hbg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 06:07 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Here it is in a nutshell - posted by Debra in another thread on this subject:

Debra wrote:
While I appreciate your attempt to play devil's advocate in attempt to paint this dire dilemma that the President supposedly faced when he ordered the mass suspicionless electronic surveillance of the American people, you have created a FALSE DILEMMA. The amorphous war on terrorism does not require any sitting President to sell his soul to the devil.

That is another mischaracterization of what the president actually did. The president ordered electronic surveillance of a particular number of suspicious people overseas communicating with a particular number of suspicious people in the USA.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 06:09 pm
icant, You're not up-to-date. Go do a search.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 06:15 pm
Bush says he signed NSA wiretap order
Adds he OK'd program more than 30 times, will continue to do so

Saturday, December 17, 2005; Posted: 8:07 p.m. EST (01:07 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In acknowledging the message was true, President Bush took aim at the messenger Saturday, saying that a newspaper jeopardized national security by revealing that he authorized wiretaps on U.S. citizens after September 11.

After The New York Times reported, and CNN confirmed, a claim that Bush gave the National Security Agency license to eavesdrop on Americans communicating with people overseas, the president said that his actions were permissible, but that leaking the revelation to the media was illegal.

During an unusual live, on-camera version of his weekly radio address, Bush said such authorization is "fully consistent" with his "constitutional responsibilities and authorities." (Watch Bush explain why he 'authorized the National Security Agency ... to intercept' -- 4:29)

Bush added: "Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. As a result, our enemies have learned information they should not have, and the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk."

He acknowledged during the address that he allowed the NSA "to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations."

The highly classified program was crucial to national security and designed "to detect and prevent terrorist attacks," he added. (Transcript)

The NSA eavesdrops on billions of communications worldwide. Although the NSA is barred from domestic spying, it can get warrants issued with the permission of a special court called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Court.

The court is set up specifically to issue warrants allowing wiretapping on domestic soil.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 06:37 pm
Published on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 by the Baltimore Sun
An Unnecessary Breach of Law
by Susan Goering

If President Bush thought his responses to charges of illegal domestic spying - a studied lack of contrition, frontal attacks on the press and Congress and reliance on preposterous legal arguments - would quell criticism from across the political spectrum, he was mistaken.


Even self-identified conservatives failed to buy his argument that his status as commander-in-chief and the post-9/11 congressional resolution authorizing him to invade Afghanistan conveyed authority to break our domestic laws.

The law that forbids ordering the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Americans without any court order is the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act. FISA was passed in 1978 to strike a balance between national security and civil liberties.

But significantly, the FISA law tilts steeply in favor of national security interests. Rather than having to go to a federal court to get a warrant, intelligence officials can get a warrant to spy from a FISA court judge in a totally secret proceeding. And they need not show "probable cause" to believe a crime is being committed but only a "reason to believe" that there is a threat to national security.

Moreover, the FISA law already provides for Mr. Bush's "enemy who is quick, clever and lethal," because officials may spy first and get a FISA order three days later. And, finally, the FISA court is notoriously compliant. Since 1979, it has declined to issue warrants only four times out of the 18,747 times the government has sought one.

In short, breaking the law was hardly necessary to achieve the national security interests the president touted. That kind of arrogance of power compounds public and congressional expressions of alarm at the most far-reaching assertion of government power any president has had the audacity to make in recent decades.

Indeed, long-time NSA officials - none of them averse to intelligence gathering - reportedly were so appalled at administration overreaching that they helped blow the whistle.

Our sudden collective outrage may also stem from recognition of a longer standing pattern of a president who cheats on the rule of law. This week, the FBI's own documents confirmed fears that, since 9/11, the FBI has been using its counterterrorism resources to monitor and infiltrate peaceful activist groups such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Greenpeace and United for Peace and Justice.

In Colorado, one FBI memo revealed an federal interest in Food Not Bombs, a group that provides free vegetarian food to hungry people and protests war and poverty. Canadian border officials interrogated a vacationing Methodist minister from Kentucky for over an hour because he was the subject of an FBI file. In Michigan, an FBI document characterized a local peace group and an affirmative action advocacy group as potentially "involved in terrorist activities."

But these are the tip of an iceberg. Our ACLU Freedom of Information Act project seeks to break open government secrecy for over 150 advocacy groups and individuals in 20 states and includes the who's who of causes for the environment, animal rights, labor, religion, Native American rights, fair trade, grassroots politics, peace, social justice, nuclear disarmament, human rights and civil liberties.

Perhaps most chilling is the FBI's penchant for labeling these groups as possible "terrorists." Because of a unilateral Bush administration executive order, the T-word opens the door to secret investigations of people in this country by a variety of secretive government agencies, inclusing the NSA. Before 9/11, domestic spying was off limits to the NSA. Over the past several days, the public has learned of more and more spying on these shores in violation of long-standing federal laws and policies.

Domestic spying abuses our trust and freedom, using limited tax dollars appropriated to fight terrorism in the process. Sen. Arlen Specter, a Republican from Pennsylvania, says he plans for his Judiciary Committee to conduct investigations. But that's not enough.

An independent special prosecutor is also necessary to determine whether our federal criminal laws have been violated by this intentional surveillance of electronic communications of people in the United States without a court order. And Congress needs to build more safeguards into the Patriot Act to curb administration conduct that is utterly antithetical to any notion of a government of laws and a profound threat to our democracy. c.i.: amen!

Susan Goering is the executive director of the ACLU of Maryland. Her e-mail is [email protected].

2005 Baltimore Sun
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 08:38 pm
emphasis added by me
cicerone imposter wrote:
Bush says he signed NSA wiretap order
Adds he OK'd program more than 30 times, will continue to do so

Saturday, December 17, 2005; Posted: 8:07 p.m. EST (01:07 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In acknowledging the message was true, President Bush took aim at the messenger Saturday, saying that a newspaper jeopardized national security by revealing that he authorized wiretaps on U.S. citizens after September 11.

After The New York Times reported, and CNN confirmed, a claim that Bush gave the National Security Agency license to eavesdrop on Americans communicating with people overseas, the president said that his actions were permissible, but that leaking the revelation to the media was illegal.

During an unusual live, on-camera version of his weekly radio address, Bush said such authorization is "fully consistent" with his "constitutional responsibilities and authorities." (Watch Bush explain why he 'authorized the National Security Agency ... to intercept' -- 4:29)

Bush added: "Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. As a result, our enemies have learned information they should not have, and the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk."

He acknowledged during the address that he allowed the NSA "to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations."

The highly classified program was crucial to national security and designed "to detect and prevent terrorist attacks," he added. (Transcript)

The NSA eavesdrops on billions of communications worldwide. Although the NSA is barred from domestic spying, it can get warrants issued with the permission of a special court called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Court.

The court is set up specifically to issue warrants allowing wiretapping on domestic soil.

The court is set up specifically to issue warrants allowing wiretapping on domestic soil between two or more domestic communicators, but not between two or more domestic and foreign communicators.

However, the president has the constitutionally delegated authority, duty, and obligation to direct the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on communications between suspected allies of those who have declared war against Americans and are making war against Americans.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 08:46 pm
Boy, your brain must be filled with sawdust. We're not arguing about "suspected foreign enemies" of our country. We're talking about unauthorized wiretaps against American citizens.

The numbers are irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 09:06 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Boy, your brain must be filled with sawdust. We're not arguing about "suspected foreign enemies" of our country. We're talking about unauthorized wiretaps against American citizens.

The numbers are irrelevant.


At this point, cice, I can no longer tell what you are talking about. And frankly, I don't think you know either.

I am talking about the legality of the president ordering the wiretapping of telephone and e-mail communications between suspected foreign enemies and their suspected domestic allies (citizens or immigrants or infiltrators or whatever).

Now if you want to talk about that, then talk about that.

If you want to talk about something else say what that something else is.

By the way, for me the ACLU has not been a reliable source on anything for well over ten years.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 09:34 pm
I find it interesting that a organization that is established to protect your Constitutional and Bill of Rights to be unworthy of your trust.

American Civil Liberties Union
I. Introduction

American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), organization devoted to defending the individual rights and freedoms of all people in the United States. The ACLU works to protect the civil liberties granted by the Constitution of the United States and Bill of Rights through litigation, legislation, and public education. The nonpartisan organization provides lawyers and legal advice for individuals and groups involved in local, state, and federal court cases. It also spearheads numerous campaigns to extend more rights to people who have traditionally been denied them, including the rights of children, prisoners, homosexuals, and people with mental illness. The ACLU has been involved in some of the most celebrated U.S. legal cases and lobbying campaigns of the 20th century.

The ACLU is the nation's largest nonprofit law organization. Its 100 full-time attorneys work with 2,000 volunteer attorneys on approximately 6,000 cases each year. The ACLU has 400,000 members and more than 300 chapters and affiliated offices throughout the United States. The organization is based in New York City.

Since its founding in 1920, the ACLU has initiated a variety of court cases to test whether particular laws are constitutional. These cases are often referred to as test cases. It has also participated in numerous court cases pertaining to individual rights by filing amicus curiae briefs (Latin for "friend-of-the-court" briefs). In such a brief, the ACLU advises the court on issues concerning civil liberties but does not provide legal counsel for either the defendant or plaintiff. ACLU briefs have influenced the outcome of many trials.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 09:38 pm
Your quote:
I am talking about the legality of the president ordering the wiretapping of telephone and e-mail communications between suspected foreign enemies and their suspected domestic allies (citizens or immigrants or infiltrators or whatever).

He can order the wiretaps, but must get FISA court approval before or after the fact. There is nothing in the law that prevents Bush from performing wiretaps on suspected enemies of the country. If any or all are "AMERICAN CITIZENS," even Bush is required to get FISA court approval.

When did your brain go south?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 11:01 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I find it interesting that a organization that is established to protect your Constitutional and Bill of Rights to be unworthy of your trust. ...

Yes, the ACLU was in deed established to protect the rights of all Americans under the Constitution and all 27 of its amendments. But well over ten years ago it began to evolve into something else. It began to evolve into an organization devoted to limiting our rights under the Constitution and all 27 of its amendments, while continuing to claim it was protecting them.

If you want me to discuss why I think so, establish an appropriate able2know forum.
0 Replies
 
 

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