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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:03 pm
More whites than others have perpetrated terroristm in our country. Should be take away rights for all white Americans? According to government statistics, that's a truism.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:06 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Case 1: The president started a war against Iraq that has killed about 30,000 Iraqis (this according to Bush), based on unsubstantiated intelligence that Saddam had WMD.

This is a lie!

Case 2: The president and his administration failed to help the people of New Orleans after one of this countries worst catastrophies.

This is a lie!

0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:10 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
More whites than others have perpetrated terroristm in our country. ...

That is a lie!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:40 pm
The Terrorism of Race and Poverty
by Frank Scott
(Sunday October 02 2005)

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"The cleanup and rebuilding will cost a hundred billion for New Orleans alone, but that represents about a year's take from the recently cut estate tax. End the criminal Iraq war fiasco, and we can easily redirect another hundred billion. But far more than money is at stake. We will ultimately have to confront a system which by its very nature exploits and oppresses many, in order to bring comfort and security to a few."


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The world's most over developed military power is its most under developed nation in matters of real human security. Almost maniacally prepared for terrorist attack by material forces, it was unprepared for the terrorist attack by an immaterial Intelligent Designer. But along with the horrors of a natural disaster on America's Gulf Coast, we witnessed the unnatural disaster of our nation's disregard for some of its people.

Millions of Americans live in denial about racism, believing that social programs solved that problem. But the reality of unedited television news told a different story. Tens of thousands of black New Orleans residents could not afford to evacuate and were left in circumstances that would be pitiful in a poor nation, but are disgraceful in the richest country in the world. They were the forgotten and excluded, untouched by selective programs, identity group catch phrases or other system saving word games. Unlike the minority professional class, they can't even afford the cosmetic title African-American; horrible scenes of deprivation offered visible evidence of their blackness, in a racist society that has only changed in the minds of the uninformed, who should now know better.

While thousands of Americans acted in compassionate solidarity, government offered pious platitudes to cover its anti-social disregard for those left out of its upscale marketing agenda.

Poverty is the global curse of capital, but while suffering foreign masses are commonly seen in disaster TV coverage, the horrid reality of poor, displaced black Americans offered an educational experience for millions of viewers. That is, those who have not suffered permanent brain damage from watching Fox TV, or reading the thinly disguised race mongering that passes for punditry in much of our print media.

Lurid stories of violent looting, many fictional, often led to survivors of a horrible experience being treated as though they were all criminals. But some media employees reported what actually happened. In historic moments of honesty, they communicated something that did not deny what people were seeing , but that made it even more vivid, compelling, and shocking.

Given the hellish reality thus exposed in the richest society the world has ever known, we should be grateful there is no judgmental and righteous Intelligent Designer of biblical lore. If there were, we might all be destroyed in a massive holocaust, earthquake and flood, as punishment for our delusions, however innocent we've been in their acquisition. Until now. After this, deniers should be seen for what they are: innocent, helpless morons, or cold, calculating enemies of all who are not members of their own race or class.

Some Americans live in worse conditions than people in third world countries, and while class is the major crime of inequality, race compounds its felony. The top 20% of American families control 85% of the nation's net worth, but that glaring inequality gap becomes an even wider chasm when race is considered. The average net worth of a white family is fourteen times greater than the average for blacks. And while our Infant mortality rate is no better than Malaysia's, worse is the fact that in America, black babies die before reaching age one at twice the rate of whites.

It is shameful that we cannot bring human life into the world with more security than can nations with only a microscopic measure of our wealth. Especially when we have such alleged reverence for life that some would force their way into a woman's womb to protect an unconscious fetus, while they destroy post fetal life in their unconscious state of zealous, patriarchal righteousness.

Individuals will suffer scape-goating for a social malfunction of colossal dimensions in New Orleans. That some officials have no understanding of the reality lived by millions of Americans is obvious. But while blatant ignorance has clearly been displayed, a system, and not its bureaucratic functionaries, is the problem.

The racism and poverty that made large sectors of New Orleans exclusively black communities, with substandard housing, shoddy schools and an environment of often crime provoking desperation, is a factor of the political economy, not a personality. It existed long before Bush appointed any crony capitalist pinhead to a responsible position.

The poverty and racism that reduce millions of Americans to lives of painful alienation is the natural outcome of an economic system, and cannot be blamed on any one person or party. The present gang of governing corporadoes may be the worst in our history, but nothing they do is out of character with the system they, and all their predecessors, have worked to maintain and protect. And this tragedy exposed that system's ugly underbelly to all but committed racists or the morally comatose.

The cleanup and rebuilding will cost a hundred billion for New Orleans alone, but that represents about a year's take from the recently cut estate tax. End the criminal Iraq war fiasco, and we can easily redirect another hundred billion. But far more than money is at stake. We will ultimately have to confront a system which by its very nature exploits and oppresses many, in order to bring comfort and security to a few.

That has always been the problem, but maybe never so forcefully revealed as in this natural disaster. We need to understand the unnatural disaster of our system's disregard for humanity that makes it a threat to not only the poor and the black, but also everyone else. It endlessly attacks our social and natural environment, especially our most helpless people, and our very sanity. It is a form of political economic terrorism that must end, if a peaceful, humane America is ever to begin.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:42 pm
Timothy McVeigh
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
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Timothy McVeigh's police mug shotTimothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 - June 11, 2001), considered by the FBI an American domestic terrorist, was executed for his part in the April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City bombing. Hundreds were injured and 167 men, women and children died when a truck loaded with improvised explosives was detonated in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building as federal offices began business for the day. Later a 168th victim died when a huge chunk of concrete crushed a rescue worker.

Most accounts say the ANFO explosive device arranged in the back of a rented Ryder truck contained about 5,000 lb (2,300 kg) of ammonium nitrate, an agricultural fertilizer, and nitromethane, a highly volatile motor-racing fuel. Prosecutors said McVeigh strode away from the truck after he ignited a timed fuse from the front of the truck. Although a day care center was located on the ground floor of the building, there is no evidence that McVeigh knew about it or purposely targeted children. However, it is suggested from prison interviews that McVeigh would have dismissed these deaths as necessary collateral damage.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:44 pm
Theodore Kaczynski
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
(Redirected from Unibomber)
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Theodore KaczynskiTheodore John Kaczynski, Ph.D., also known as the Unabomber (born May 22, 1942) is an American convicted murderer who sent mail bombs to various people over almost eighteen years, killing three and wounding 29, justifying his crimes as an attempt to fight against what he perceived as the evils of technological progress. He was the target of the FBI's most expensive manhunt ever.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:47 pm
Holding Terrorists Accountable? It Depends on the Color and the Cause...



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4 November 2001

Members of his terrorist organization and network have killed Americans, on American soil. Those inspired by his message have engaged in a mass atrocity: blowing innocent people out of their offices as the building where they worked crumbled to the ground.

He himself has called for total war against the enemy in an effort to "cleanse" the United States. He has said that although innocent people will die in such an effort, "it is necessary, and because it is necessary, it is good." Seven years ago he warned of potential pending attacks when he wrote: "New Yorkers who work in tall office buildings--anything close to the size of the World Trade Center--might consider wearing hardhats to work..."

Osama bin Laden? Not even close. And unlike bin Laden, who is now a marked man despite little concrete evidence linking him to the attacks of September 11th, this individual has not been targeted for elimination by the United States government. No one is speaking of "bringing him to justice," or holding him accountable for the actions attributable to his associates and devotees.

And unlike bin Laden, whose whereabouts are unknown, the address of the person about whom I speak is well known. He is not in hiding, and doesn't move around. He's so easy to find that 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace simply sauntered up to his home a couple of years ago and had a chat with him. His phone number is (304) 653-4600.

His name is William Pierce, and he lives in Mill Point, West Virginia, with a P.O. Box at the post office in nearby Hillsboro. He is a longtime neo-Nazi who calls Hitler the "greatest man of our era" and advocates the liquidation of all non-whites in the U.S.

His novel, The Turner Diaries (written under a pseudonym) apparently served as the inspiration for Timothy McVeigh's attack on the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, much the way we are told Osama bin Laden's words have inspired Islamic terrorism, even if he is not directly involved in the planning process.

In Pierce's book, white "patriots" blow up a federal building using the same materials as those used by McVeigh, packed in a truck like the one McVeigh used, at the same time of day as the one exploded by McVeigh. They then launch a race war, slaughtering non-whites, race-"mixers," gays, lesbians and Jews, before dropping nuclear weapons on Israel.

McVeigh was, according to former soldiers who served with him in the Persian Gulf, obsessed with the book, and inspired by its author. In the days before the bombing he sent clippings of the book to his sister, explaining that "something big" was going to happen, and when arrested had copies of Turner Diaries' passages in his car.

Over the years, other followers of Pierce and members of his group, the National Alliance, have engaged in armed robberies, shootouts with law enforcement, and murders in at least a half dozen states. They have plotted to commit mass murder in multiple bombings, foiled only by premature detonation of the devices in question.

The Order--a neo-Nazi gang that committed a series of robberies and killed Denver radio talk show host Alan Berg in 1984--was led by Alliance members, including Robert Matthews who left Pierce $50,000 in life insurance benefits after his death during a shootout with the FBI.

Pierce's weekly radio broadcasts regularly call for the elimination of anyone who isn't white, and his group encourages members to raid military bases in search of weapons and ammunition. Yet no one is calling for him to be brought in "dead or alive" as President Bush recently did regarding bin Laden.

While President Bush and media pundits warn of bin-Laden's associates "living among us," the National Alliance has at least 16 active cells nationwide, engaged in activity in at least 26 states, a membership hovering around 1,000, and thousands more listening to their shortwave radio broadcasts and reading the materials on their website.

On those broadcasts and the website, readers and listeners can see and hear Pierce call for "a racially clean area of the earth for the development of our people," with "no non-whites in our living space." They can hear him speak of the mass slaughter that he terms the "final cleansing," and the need to eliminate all Jews and race "traitors." For these latter groups he says, "we must hunt them down and get rid of them."

On August 15th of this year, Pierce broadcast the following message: "We really have become too civilized and have forgotten one of Mother Nature's most basic rules: Two different types of animal cannot permanently occupy exactly the same ecological niche. One eventually must drive the other into extinction..."

"We must have exclusive possession of those portions of this planet which constitute suitable habitat for us...in order to obtain and maintain that exclusive possession, we must be prepared to kill, to annihilate, any and all competitors."

But despite the open support for mass murder, and despite the actual violence carried out by Alliance members and Pierce acolytes over the past two decades, few people are aware of this neo-Nazi terror network, nor does the President seem concerned about it.

One gets the impression that in the eyes of American officialdom, some terrorists pose a threat to the country and others don't. Some terrorist actions result in calls for racial or ethnic profiling of those "fitting the description" and others don't.

After all, when have white guys ever been profiled just because some white guys like McVeigh, or Pierce, or others of their ilk committed atrocities, advocated murder, and engaged in criminal activity? The answer is never, of course.

Profiling and war are things we offer to those who look different from us, speak differently than us, and are easy to identify without inconveniencing the dominant majority. Arabs, Muslims, and people of color generally, make easy targets. Not so white guys. Not so William Pierce.

And homegrown white terrorists can't be as effectively used to justify huge military buildups, or new powers for the CIA, as a perceived foreign threat can. For an Administration desperately in need of an enemy to justify its desire for massive new military expenditures, only the dark, dangerous image of the outsider will do.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:51 pm
From Wikipedia:

Historical origin
The original White Terror took place in 1794, during the turbulent times surrounding the French Revolution. It was organized by reactionary royalist forces in the aftermath of the Reign of Terror, and was targeted at the radical Jacobins and anyone suspected of supporting them. Throughout France, both real and suspected Jacobins were attacked and often murdered. Just like during the Reign of Terror, trials were held with little regard for due process. In other cases, gangs of youths who had aristocratic connections roamed the streets beating known Jacobins. These "bands of Jesus" dragged suspected terrorists from prisons and murdered them much as alleged royalists had been murdered during the September Massacres of 1792.

Again, in 1815, following the return of King Louis XVIII of France to power, people suspected of having ties with the governments of the French Revolution or of Napoleon suffered arrest and execution.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:54 pm
How The New York Times Discovered All Those WMDs in Iraq and Cuba


by Jane Franklin
November 17, 2005


"U.S. Says Hussein Intensifies Quest for A-Bomb Parts" blared the lead
article of the New York Times on Sunday, September 8, 2002. That fateful
article is now a notorious example of the disastrous symbiosis between the
White House and corporate media. Using White House sources, co-authors
Judith Miller and Michael Gordon stated as fact that "Iraq has sought to buy
thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials
believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium" for
use in making nuclear bombs. The article warned that American officials are
"alarmed" by Iraq's "quest for nuclear weapons": "The first sign of a
'smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."


Here was the perfect gift to President Bush's quest for war: an article
parroting the Administration's own words on the front page of the liberal
New York Times, "the newspaper of record." Timed for the Sunday talk shows
and their White House guests, the article was deployed within hours of its
publication by Vice-President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin Powell,
and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, each seizing the opportunity
to spread their scary disinformation to TV audiences throughout the country
and the world.


On "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert, Cheney cited the article as evidence
for the administration's case: "There's a story in the New York Times this
morning...I want to attribute the Times. I don't want to talk about,
obviously, specific intelligence sources, but it's now public that, in fact,
[Saddam Hussein] has been seeking to acquire...the kinds of tubes that are
necessary to build a centrifuge" as a step toward building a nuclear bomb.


General Colin Powell, the media's image of a moderate (despite such
achievements as his cover-up of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, support for
the contras in Nicaragua, and oversight of the invasion of Panama), was part
of the show. In his interview on "Fox News Sunday" by Tony Snow and Brit
Hume, Powell delivered a bellicose argument for quick "regime change"
because "time is not on our side." "As we saw in reporting just this
morning," he gravely warned, Hussein has ordered "the specialized aluminum
tubing one needs to develop centrifuges that would give you an enrichment
capability" for making nuclear bombs.


Condi Rice, interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on CNN's "Late Edition," stated that
the White House knows of "shipments going into Iraq" of aluminum tubes "that
are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs." She failed to mention
that her own staff had been informed a year earlier of serious doubts about
that claim. Borrowing a key phrase from the Times article, she warned, "We
don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."


This phrase became a rallying cry used by President Bush on October 7 in
Cincinnati in his speech that took the nation to war. "Iraq," he said, "has
attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment
needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear
weapons." "Facing clear evidence of peril," he continued, "we cannot wait
for the final proof--the smoking gun--that could come in the form of a
mushroom cloud."


Four days later, a cowering Congress surrendered to Bush the authority to
make war.


So the collusion between the Bush Administration and the New York Times
contributed to a catastrophic war. Journalists reported what White House
sources reported and then the White House reported what the journalists
reported. Even though the so-called facts--later revealed as bald
concoctions--were already in dispute, White House fiction subtly morphed
into truth because it bore the respected imprimatur of the Times.


After the damage had been done, Times editors published on May 26, 2004, a
pathetically anemic apology, given the role they had played in facilitating
a so-called War on Terror that threatens to be the Forever War. Embarrassed
by blatantly false reports, the editors particularly mentioned six articles,
including, of course, the September 8, 2002 history-making piece.


Judith Miller was responsible for more of the articles than any other
reporter (author or co-author of four out of the six) but there were four
other reporters who were authors or co-authors: Chris Hedges, John
Tagliabue, Patrick E. Tyler, and Michael Gordon. Those five of course are
not the only eager mouthpieces.


Now publisher Arthur Sulzberger Jr. is blaming Times editors as well as
Judith Miller for the phony pre-war reports about weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq. He said editors "didn't own up to it quickly enough."
Where was he? And why did the Times publish those jingoist articles about
WMDs in Iraq in the midst of a massive White House campaign aimed at
building support for Bush's plan to take out Hussein and take Iraq? When it
comes to foreign policy, the owners of the New York Times are embedded with
the White House team that feeds "information" to the eager mouthpieces of
corporate media. They share, for examples, the same clear positions on such
crucial matters as Israel and Cuba.


Misinformation and disinformation in the New York Times and other corporate
media are of course nothing new. Those who want to explore the sordid
record, especially of the Times, should start by consulting Lies of Our
Times, a monthly magazine published from January 1990 through December 1994;
Edward Herman's forthcoming article, "The New York Times Versus The Civil
Society," in the December, 2005, Z Magazine; and Howard Friel and Richard
Falk's The Record of the Paper: How the New York Times Misreports US Foreign
Policy.


Judith Miller was able to use her job at a prestigious newspaper to embed
herself with key personalities like Cheney's favorite, Ahmad Chalabi, an
Iraqi with Iranian ties able to produce lying defectors. At the White House
itself Miller embedded herself with various acolytes of Dick Cheney, not
just I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby. Her entanglement with John R. Bolton is
equally insidious. Just as she collaborated with the White House to
stampede us into invading Iraq, she attempted to do the same with Cuba.


In the spring of 2002 former President Jimmy Carter was scheduled to visit
Havana, becoming the first president in or out of office to visit the island
since the revolution of January 1, 1959. Because the visit was contrary to
the White House policy of isolating Cuba with sanctions against travel and
trade, the White House of course wanted to sabotage Carter's trip. On May
6, six days before Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter were to fly to Havana, Under
Secretary of State for Arms Control John Bolton delivered a speech to the
Heritage Foundation in Washington called "Beyond the Axis of Evil:
Additional Threats from Weapons of Mass Destruction." He announced, "The
United States believes that Cuba has at least a limited offensive biological
warfare research and development effort. Cuba has provided dual-use
biotechnology to other rogue states. We are concerned that such technology
could support BW [biological warfare] programs in those states."


On cue, Judith Miller immediately published in the New York Times an
alarming article headlined "Washington Accuses Cuba of Germ-Warfare
Research." Framed in the "he says-she says" format of what passes for
"objective" journalism nowadays, Miller adroitly presented the case on
behalf of her White House connection. Who is the only person she could find
to deny or even question Bolton's claims? Why, a Cuban official, of course.
On the other side, cited in support of Bolton were a Soviet defector, a
Cuban defector, and unnamed "administration officials."


Miller ended her article with a quote from right-wing Cuban-American
Representative Lincoln Diaz-Balart (Republican of Florida), who has publicly
called for the assassination of President Fidel Castro. Diaz-Balart said
that Bolton's remarks "'begin to put into the proper perspective the debate
about Cuba, a terrorist state with biological weapons 90 miles from the
shores of the United States.'" Thus, the article proceeded from Bolton's
claim of a "research and development effort" to Diaz-Balart's affirmation of
"biological weapons" 90 miles from Florida.


Hurried newspaper readers would probably miss the article's internal
evidence indicating opposition to Bolton's claim among Washington's
intelligence agencies. Miller reported that Bolton "publicly alluded to
conclusions that American intelligence agencies have reached in recent
months after protracted internal debate." Internal debate? What's that
about? An investigative reporter could have easily found out. Bolton's
unsubstantiated charge was so outrageous that it became one of the main
issues in his failure to be confirmed by the Senate last summer as
ambassador to the United Nations because he had tried to bully analysts into
saying that there was a definite attempt by Cuba to develop biological
weapons. Reportedly due to Cheney's urging, Bush gave him the job anyway
with a recess appointment.


The New York Times, which hardly pretends to cover news about Cuba fairly,
seemed like a good site for promoting Bolton's onslaught. Miller's report
aimed to convince Times readers that Cuba's vaunted health system is
actually a cover for terrorist activities. Why would Jimmy Carter want to
visit a rogue nation armed with germ weapons?


But this time the Administration was going too far. Even much of the rest
of the corporate media recognized how perverse it was to portray Cuba's
health system, admired and helpful around the world, as a terrorist threat.
There was a virtual chorus of "Where's the evidence?" The Florida
Sun-Sentinel brought up the question
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 08:57 pm
Calling It Quits: Iraq's WMDs


January 15 2005
Counterbias.com
Scott C. Smith


Quick: what news story has been covered the most often in January? Was it the report by the Washington Post on January 11 that the Iraq Survey Group - the team hunting for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq - had ended its search? Or was it the findings of an investigation by CBS on the Sixty Minutes II broadcast of September 8, 2004, in which George W. Bush's National Guard Service was questioned using what turned out to be forged memos from a dead commander?

The answer, of course, is the hunt for WMDs coming to an end.

No, it wasn't.

The CBS "memo gate" investigation has been all over the so-called liberal media. You'd think it was the most important news item of the century based on the coverage.

The Washington Post reported the news that the Iraq Survey Group had ended its hunt for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq on January 11; the group actually ended its search at the end of 2004.

Not a single weapon was found in Iraq.

Nothing. Not a drop of chemical agents, no conventional weapons, no nuclear weapons, no biological agents, no nerve gas, no enriched uranium, no mobile missile launchers; not a single weapon has been found in two years of searching.

Remember when Secretary of State Colin Powell appeared before the United Nations Security Council on February 5, 2003? Powell outlined the terrifying threat posed by Saddam Hussein and his vast stockpiles of weapons. "My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we are giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence," Powell stated to the council.

Turns out Powell's facts were actually assertions.

For whatever reason, the "liberal" media has given George W. Bush a pass on this story. It boggles the mind. Look at the media's treatment of Bill Clinton. Every scandal - regardless if there was a basis in fact for the scandal - was covered in great detail. When the story broke about Clinton having an affair with an intern, the media grabbed the story and ran with it, for weeks.

So far no explanation has been offered by the Bush administration as to why no weapons were found. "No comment" is pretty much the official word from team Bush. Which is funny, because the Bush administration had a lot to say about Iraq in the months prior to March 2003.

For instance, in a speech given at the Cincinnati Museum Center on October 7, 2002, President Bush claimed Iraq "…possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles -- far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations…we've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

In his 2003 State of the Union Address, Bush again outlined the horrible threat posed by Iraq: "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them."

George Bush drew a line in the sand on March 17, 2003, giving Saddam Hussein 48 hours to leave Iraq. "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Also, "The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other."

Two days later we went to war, reluctantly, according to Bush. "Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly -- yet, our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. We will meet that threat now, with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of fire fighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities."

And now, nearly two years later, at a cost of 1361 American lives, no weapons of mass murder have been discovered. No weapons had been concealed. No, we didn't find 500 tons of sarin nerve gas. And no, we didn't uncover a fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles.

And while we have freed Iraqis from a brutal dictator, our actions in Iraq may very well be at the root of a growing terrorist threat in Iraq, according to a report issued January 13 by the National Intelligence Committee. The report, titled Mapping The Global Future, suggests that Iraq is now a breeding ground for terrorists due to the chaos created by the war.

Conservative outrage is not expected.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 09:01 pm
The Democrats and Iraqi WMDs: Bush is Right, Sort of…
by Stephen Zunes

Now that some Democrats are finally speaking out against the administration's phony claims about Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction," conservative talk show hosts, columnists and bloggers have been dredging up scores of pre-invasion quotes by Democratic leaders citing non-existent Iraqi WMDs.

These defenders of the administration keep asking the question, "If President Bush lied, does that mean that the Democrats lied too?" The answer, unfortunately, is a qualified "yes." Based on my conversations with Democratic members of Congress and their staffs in the weeks and months leading up to the invasion, there is reason to believe that at least some in the leadership of the Democratic Party is also guilty of having misled the American public regarding the supposed threat emanating from Iraq. At minimum, it could be considered criminal negligence.

As a result, though the Republicans have undoubtedly been hurt by their false statements on the subject, the Democrats are not likely to reap much benefit.

It did not have to be that way. Indeed, given the number of academics, former arms inspectors, strategic analysts, and others (me included) who had warned these Capitol Hill Democrats well prior to the October 2002 vote authorizing the invasion of Iraq that the Bush administration's WMD claims were not to be taken seriously, they have no one to blame but themselves. As a result of the Democrats choosing to disingenuously repeat these false claims of a supposed Iraqi threat in order to justify their vote to give President George W. Bush unprecedented war powers, Republicans are now able to portray the administration's lies simply as honest mistakes.

It is certainly true that the Bush administration pressured members of the intelligence community to come up with data that would support their claims that Iraq was somehow a military threat to the United States and that they presented highly-selective and exaggerated "evidence" to Democratic lawmakers. It is also true that Republicans in Congress have blocked demands by some Democrats that a serious investigation be undertaken regarding the manipulation of intelligence regarding Iraq's military capability.

However, there was enough counter-evidence published in reputable journals, United Nations reports, policy briefs from independent think tanks, and even from within the State Department and CIA that should have made it possible for the Democrats to have seen through the Bush administration's lies if they wanted to. And there is some evidence to suggest that they didn't want to: for example, Senator Joseph Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Senate International Relations Committee, teamed up with his Republican counterparts to prevent those challenging Bush administration WMD claims prior to the invasion from testifying.

It should also be remembered that it was the Clinton administration, not the current administration, which first insisted-despite the lack of evidence-that Iraq had successfully concealed or re-launched its chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs. Clinton's fear-mongering around Iraqi WMDs began in 1997, several years after they had been successfully destroyed or rendered inoperable. Based upon the alleged Iraqi threat, Clinton ordered a massive four-day bombing campaign against Iraq in December 1998, forcing the evacuation of inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) and the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA.) As many of us had warned just prior to the bombing, this gave Saddam Hussein the opportunity to refuse to allow the inspectors to return. It also provided a "lesson" that unilateral military action, not nonviolent law-based processes through inter-governmental organizations, was the means to respond to the threat of WMD proliferation.

Clinton was egged on to take such unilateral military action by leading Senate Democratic leaders -- including then-Minority Leader Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Carl Levin, and others who signed a letter in October 1998 -- urging the president "to take necessary actions, including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspected Iraqi sites, to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Meanwhile, Clinton's Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was repeatedly making false statements regarding Iraq's supposed possession of WMDs, even justifying the enormous humanitarian toll from the U.S.-led economic sanctions on Iraq on the grounds that "Saddam Hussein has . . . chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction."

Congressional Democrats continued their efforts to scare the American people into believing the Iraq was a threat to U.S. national security after President Bush came to office. Connecticut senator Joseph Leiberman sent a letter to President Bush in December 2001 declaring that "There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs" and that Iraq's "biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status." Eight months later, in order to frighten the American people into supporting a U.S. takeover of that oil-rich land, the 2000 Democratic Party vice-presidential nominee even claimed "Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States."

Even after the International Atomic Energy Agency declared, after more than one thousand unannounced inspections throughout Iraq during the 1990s, that Iraq no longer had a nuclear program and despite the 2001 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) that confirmed there was no evidence that such work had resumed, Democratic Senator Jay Rockefeller declared "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons." President Bush has since used the irresponsible rhetoric of the junior senator from West Virginia -- now the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee -- to discredit Congressional opponents of the war, citing this quote in his recent speech at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska.

During the fall of 2002, in an effort to counter the efforts of those of us questioning the Bush administration's WMD claims, congressional Democrats redoubled their efforts to depict Saddam Hussein as a threat to America's national security. Democrats controlled the Senate at that point and could have blocked President Bush's request for the authority to invade Iraq. However, in October, the majority of Democratic senators, led by Majority Leader Daschle and assistant Majority leader Harry Reid, voted to authorize President Bush to invade Iraq at the time and circumstances of his own choosing on the grounds that Iraq "poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States … by … among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, [and] actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability."

In a Senate speech defending his vote to authorize Bush to launch an invasion, Senator Kerry categorically declared, despite the lack of any credible evidence, that "Iraq has chemical and biological weapons" and even alleged that most elements of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs were "larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf War." Furthermore, Kerry asserted that Iraq was "attempting to develop nuclear weapons," backing up this accusation by falsely claiming that "all U.S. intelligence experts agree" with that assessment. The Massachusetts junior senator also alleged that "Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents [that] could threaten Iraq's neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf." Though it soon became evident that none of Kerry's allegations were true, the Democratic Party still decided to reward him in 2004 with its nomination for president.

Kerry supporters claim he was not being dishonest in making these false claims but that he had been fooled by "bad intelligence" passed on by the Bush administration. However, well before Kerry's vote to authorize the invasion, former UN inspector Scott Ritter personally told the senator and his senior staff that claims about Iraq still having WMDs or WMD programs were not based on valid intelligence. According to Ritter, "Kerry knew that there was a verifiable case to be made to debunk the president's statements regarding the threat posed by Iraq's WMDs, but he chose not to act on it."

Joining Kerry in voting to authorize the invasion was North Carolina Senator John Edwards, who-in the face of growing public skepticism of the Bush administration's WMD claims-rushed to the president's defense in an op-ed article published in the Washington Post. In his commentary, Edwards claimed that Iraq was "a grave and growing threat" and that Congress should therefore "endorse the use of all necessary means to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction." The Bush administration was so impressed with Edwards' arguments that they posted the article on the State Department website. Again, despite the fact that Edwards' claims were completely groundless, the Democratic Party rewarded him less than two years later with its nomination for vice president.

By 2004, it was recognized that the administration's WMD claims were bogus and the war was not going well. The incumbent president and vice president, who had misled the nation into a disastrous war through phony claims of an Iraqi military threat, were therefore quite vulnerable to losing the November election. But instead of nominating candidates who opposed the war and challenged these false WMD claims, the Democrats chose two men who had also misled the nation into war by frightening the American public into believing that a war-ravaged Third World country on the far side of the planet threatened our nation's security and advocated continued prosecution of the bloody counter-insurgency campaign resulting from the U.S. invasion and occupation. Though enormous sums of money and volunteer hours which could have gone into anti-war organizing instead went into the campaigns of these pro-invasion senators, many anti-war activists refused on principle to support them. Not surprisingly, the Democrats lost.

Kerry's failure to tell the truth continues to hurt the anti-war movement, as President Bush to this day quotes Kerry's false statements about Iraq's pre-invasion military capability as a means of covering up for the lies of his administration. For example, in his recent Veteran's Day speech in Pennsylvania in which he attacked the anti-war movement, President Bush was able to say, "Many of these critics supported my opponent during the last election, who explained his position to support the resolution in the Congress this way: 'When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security'."

Despite the consequences of putting forth nominees who failed to tell the truth about Iraq's WMD capabilities, current polls show that New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, who also made false claims about the alleged Iraqi threat, is the front-runner for the Democratic Party nomination for president in 2008. In defending her vote authorizing President Bush to invade Iraq, Ms. Clinton claimed that "if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

In his Veteran's Day speech, Bush was able to deny any wrongdoing by his administration by noting how "more than a hundred Democrats in the House and the Senatewho had access to the same intelligencevoted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power." If the Democrats had instead decided to be honest and take a critical look at the phony intelligence being put forward by the administration, they would have said what so many of us were saying at the time: it was highly unlikely that Iraq still had such weapons. Instead, by also making false claims about Iraqi WMD capability, it not only resulted in their failure to re-take the House and Senate in the 2004 elections, but they have effectively shielded the Bush administration from the consequences of its actions.

Even some prominent congressional Democrats who did not vote to authorize the invasion were willing to defend the Bush administration's WMD claims. When House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi appeared on NBC's Meet the Press in December 2002, she claimed: "Saddam Hussein certainly has chemical and biological weapons. There is no question about that." Despite repeated requests for information, made by me and other San Francisco constituents, her staff has been unwilling to reveal what led the Democratic leader to make such a groundless claim with such certitude.

The consequence of these Democrats' actions go well beyond their losses in the 2004 election. If the Democrats had been honest and acknowledged that there was no proof to support Bush administration claims of a reconstituted Iraqi WMD program, the Republicans would have been exposed as deliberately misleading the country into war, thereby making it far more difficult for them to get away with the kind of fear-mongering which threaten further U.S. military interventions in the region and increased waste of our nation's resources into paying for bloated military budgets at the expense of pressing human needs at home. Instead, the prospects of a less militaristic foreign policy and the promises of a post-Cold War "peace dividend" may have been lost for the foreseeable future.

Some Democrats have defended their pre-invasion claims by citing the public summary of the 2002 NIE which appeared to confirm some of the Bush administration's claims. However, there were a number of reasons to have been skeptical: this NIE was compiled in a much shorter time frame than is normally provided for such documents and the report expressed far more certainty regarding Iraq's WMD capabilities than all reports from the previous five years despite the lack of additional data to justify such a shift. When the report was released, there was much stronger dissent within the intelligence community than about any other NIE in history and the longer classified version, which was available to every member of Congress, included these dissenting voices from within the intelligence community

Others have defended the Democrats by saying that if they had insisted on hard evidence to support the administration's WMD claims they would have been accused of being weak on national defense. This excuse has little merit, however, since Republicans accuse Democrats of being weak on defense whatever they do. For example, even though congressional Democrats voted nearly unanimously to grant President Bush extraordinary war powers immediately following the Sept. 11 attacks and strongly supported the bombing of Afghanistan, this did not prevent the White House from falsely accusing Democrats of calling for "moderation and restraint" towards the Al-Qaeda terrorists and offering "therapy and understanding for our attackers." Similarly, even though 2004 Democratic presidential nominee Kerry defended America's right to unilaterally invade foreign countries in violation of the United Nations Charter and basic international legal standards, President Bush still accused him of believing that "in order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval."

In reality, it appears that the Democrats were as enthusiastic about the United States invading and occupying Iraq as were the Republicans and that the WMD claims were largely a means of scaring the American public into accepting the right of the United States to effectively renounce 20th century international legal norms in favor of the right of conquest. Indeed, Senators Kerry, Edwards, and Clinton all subsequently stated that they would have voted to authorize the invasion even if they knew Iraq did not have WMDs (though, in response to popular pressure, they have begun to express some doubts in recent weeks.) Given their apparent eagerness for an excuse to go to war in order to take over that oil-rich nation, they seem to have been willing to believe virtually anything the Bush administration said and dismiss the concerns of independent strategic analysts who saw through the falsehoods.

This may help explain why congressional Democrats had been so reluctant, until faced with enormous pressure from their constituents following the Libby indictments, to push for a serious inquiry regarding the Bush administration misleading the American public on Iraqi WMDs: the Democrats are guilty as well. It may also explain why pro-Democratic newspapers such as the New York Times and Washington Post were so unwilling to publicize the Downing Street memos and so belittled efforts by the handful of conscientious Democrats, such as Michigan Representative John Conyers, to uncover WMD deceptions. Such failures have led both newspapers' ombudsmen to issue rare rebukes.

Even after it has become apparent that the Bush administration had been dishonest regarding Iraq's alleged threat, Democrats still seem unwilling to take a more skeptical view of administration claims regarding alleged WMD threats from overseas. For example, congressional Democrats have overwhelmingly voted in favor of legislation targeting Syria and Iran based primarily on dubious claims by the Bush administration of these countries' military capabilities and alleged threats to American security interests. Given that the vast majority of Democrats who hyped false WMD claims regarding Iraq were re-elected in 2004 anyway, they apparently believe that they have little to lose by again reinforcing the administration's alarmist claims of threats to U.S. national security.

Perhaps we need to prove them wrong. The United States will almost certainly find itself in another war based on phony claims that the targeted country possesses WMDs unless members of Congress know there will be political consequences to their actions. As a result, in order to advance the cause of peace and a responsible foreign policy, it may be necessary to target all members of Congress up for re-election next year who made false statements regarding Iraq's WMD capabilities - both Republican and Democrat - for defeat.

Stephen Zunes is a professor of Politics and the author of "Tinderbox: U.S. Middle East Policy and the Roots of Terrorism" (Common Courage Press, 2003). He is Middle East editor for Foreign Policy in Focus www.fpif.org, where some segments of this article first appeared.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2005 09:34 pm
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Case 1: The president started a war against Iraq that has killed about 30,000 Iraqis (this according to Bush), based on unsubstantiated intelligence that Saddam had WMD.

This is a lie!

Case 2: The president and his administration failed to help the people of New Orleans after one of this countries worst catastrophies.

This is a lie!



ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
More whites than others have perpetrated terroristm in our country. ...

That is a lie!


A preponderance of new lies does not turn old lies into truths.

I have repeatedly posted a preponderance of evidence supporting the following allegations.

Al Qaeda and the al Qaeda religion are a deadly threat to a major part of humanity. Al Qaeda must be exterminated or it will attempt to exterminate that major part of humanity that chooses not to adopt the al Qaeda religion. Anyone or government that abets al Qaeda, is likewise a deadly threat to that same part of humanity.

My most recent post of a preponderance of evidence that supports these allegations will be found at:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1714233#1714233


Al Qaeda moved into Iraq December 2001 (after 9/11/2001 and after the USA invasion of Afghanistan October 2001) and established new training camps there. Al Qaeda grew substantially by the time of our invasion of Iraq in March 2003, because Saddam's government tolerated (i.e., harbored) al Qaeda in Iraq.

My most recent post of a preponderance of evidence that supports these allegations will be found at:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1714240#1714240


My most recent answer to the question whether any of these reasons were among Bush’s original reasons for invading Iraq, will be found at:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1714246#1714246
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 12:59 am
Quote:
Iraq: 1000 days of war

From Shock and Awe to a country torn between insurrection and democracy


By Patrick Cockburn in Baghdad
Published: 13 December 2005

It has been the strangest war. A thousand days ago, on 20 March 2003, the US and British armies started a campaign which ended a few weeks later with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

It seemed so easy. President George Bush announced that the war was over. The American mission had been accomplished. Months passed before Washington and London realised that the war had not finished. In fact it was only just beginning. Of the 18,000 US servicemen killed or wounded in Iraq, 94 per cent have been killed or wounded since the fall of Baghdad.

There is no sign that the election for the 275-member Iraqi parliament this Thursday will end the fighting. The Sunni Arabs, the core of the insurrection, will vote for the first time, but there is no talk of a ceasefire. A leaflet issued by one resistance group in Baghdad yesterday encouraged its followers to vote but warned: "The fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

It was such a strange war because the US began a conflict in 2003 to change radically the Middle East, the most volatile and dangerous region in the world. This was in complete contrast to the first Gulf War in 1991, when the main war aim of President George Bush Snr was to evict Saddam Hussein from Kuwait and restore the status quo.

There was a further sharp difference between the two wars. Mr Bush Snr had expended enormous effort in creating an international coalition under the UN to fight Iraq. His son, by way of contrast, seemed to revel in isolation. He made the Iraq war the supreme test of American military and political strength. The US would fight it alone, aside from Britain tagging along behind, and win it alone. It did not need allies outside or even inside Iraq. The insurgents received vital if covert assistance from abroad, but the rebellion against the US occupation was always essentially home-grown. Disillusionment with their liberators set in among Iraqis almost as soon as the American troops captured the capital in April 2003. The poor poured out of the slums of Baghdad in a frenzy of destruction and theft. Everything was looted, even the stuffed animals in the natural history museum.

Iraqis expected much from the fall of Saddam. They had endured 23 years of war and sanctions. The Iraqi armed forcessimply packed up and went home. Nobody wanted to die for the old regime. Instead they hoped to enjoy the fruits of their oil wealth for the first time and begin to live like Kuwaitis or Saudis.

Instead the US installed a colonial regime. Iraqis were marginalised and their opinions ignored. Iraqi professionals with PhDs and fluent in several languages found themselves being ordered about by young Americans whose only qualification was links to the Republican Party. The army and security services were dissolved. The five million-strong Sunni community was enraged. The first attacks on US patrols and vehicles began. Whenever I visited the site of an ambush I saw young Iraqi men dancing in jubilation around the blazing vehicles.

By November 2004 a serious guerrilla war was under way. The 140,000-strong US Army was hopelessly ill-equipped for such a conflict. Once I saw an American artillery unit trying to quell a fist fight among Iraqi drivers in a queue at a petrol station. They had brought with them an enormous howitzer designed to fire a shell 30km because they had nowhere to store it.

The face of Baghdad began to change. The symbol of the new regime was the concrete block, enormous obstacles to car bombs looking like gigantic grey tombstones. Walls of them sealed off the Green Zone in the centre of Baghdad where the US and Britain had established their headquarters.

The suicide bombers began to make their terrifying impact. Nobody was safe. The UN headquarters was reduced to a heap of rubble, as was the building housing the Red Cross. Iraqi police stations and US positions were all hastily fortified. On some days there were a dozen attacks. Later they fell in number, but became more sophisticated, with one bomber trying to blast a way through the concrete walls so the second could reach the targeted building.

People in Baghdad and the centre of Iraq lived in perpetual terror of suicide bombers, kidnappers, Iraqi army and US troops. The roads to the capital were all cut by insurgents or bandits. Better-off Iraqis, fearful of kidnappers who preyed on their children, fled to Jordan, Syria and Egypt. In the face of Sunni Arab attack, the US relied more and more on the two other great Iraqi communities. The Shia make up 60 per cent of the population and the Kurds 20 per cent. Some Iraqi leaders had an acute perception of the American dilemma in Iraq. "Let them try to run the country without us and they will see what trouble they will be in," said a Kurdish leader in the summer of 2003. "Then they will come running to us for our help."

Last year the US learnt that it could contain but could not suppress the Sunni insurrection. This year has seen Iraq slowly coming under the control of a Kurdish-Shia alliance whose authority is likely to be reaffirmed by the election on Thursday.

Iraq at the moment is an extraordinary patchwork with conditions varying in every part of the country. Kurdistan is more prosperous than at any time in its history. The skylines of its cities are crowded with cranes. In Baghdad there is hardly any sign of construction, and richer districts are often inhabited only by armed security guards. Their inhabitants have fled.

A BBC poll yesterday showed that half of those questioned say that Iraq needs a strong leader, while only 28 per cent cited democracy as a priority. But it would be a mistake to think that Iraqis could agree on the same strong leader. The Sunni would like a strong man to put the Shia in their place, and the Shia feel likewise that the priority for a powerful leader would be dealing with the Sunni.

Iraqis are cynical about their political leaders. The election results are likely to show that the great majority of Iraqis will vote along ethnic or religious lines as Shia, Sunni or Kurds. The country is turning from a unitary state into a confederation.

There is no sign yet of the thousand-day war ending. Every month up to a thousand fresh corpses arrive at the mortuary in Baghdad. A new Iraq is emerging but it is already drenched in blood.

Source
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 02:09 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Well, there are "known terrorists" that have not been convicted of a terrorist crime in a regular jury trial. But FF did not place the requirement of a jury conviction upon the label "known terrorist" in her post, and I do not believe that was her intent.

I was not assuming that was her intent, I meant to criticize that it was not her intent. In my opinion, the hypothetical scenario she suggested to me assumed to many of her conclusions. Unlike you, Foxfyre, and Ticomaya, I require some process consistent with the rule of law before I call someone a "known terrorist". Preferrably that would be a jury trial. I am willing to be bargained down to a military tribunal. But you can't just call someone a "known terrorist" if no process of law has ever determined that this is actually true.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 04:22 am
Thomas I've said before that you are wasting your time expecting logic or justice out of the American legal system. They just killed a man this morning because he wouldnt admit to a crime he said he did not commit. And they took their time about killing him, 24 years on death row then still bungled the intravenous injections. Still whats 20 minutes dying when you've been waiting all that time. And yes I do feel strongly about this it is an outrage, no better than the medieval Taliban stoning people to death, and puts the US in the same category. Still if thats how they want to be seen by the world let them. But dont assume its worth engaging in sensible discussion about due process or civilised behaviour.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 05:14 am
ican711nm wrote:
What part of McCain's book contradicted his quotes about torture working on him.

The same part of McCain's book that also contains your source's quote. I'd say within two pages or less.

ican711nm wrote:
Why don't you quote those parts so as to enlighten us all?

I told you why I can't quote that part: I don't own the book, which I read while staying at an American friend, and Google Books doesn't index it yet. But I did refer you to a McCain article where he states that the North Vietnamese extracted no useful intelligence from him. So while your McCain quote was filtered through a blogger with an incentive to spin it, at least my McCain quote was unflitered.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Thomas I've said before that you are wasting your time expecting logic or justice out of the American legal system. They just killed a man this morning because he wouldnt admit to a crime he said he did not commit.

I have an opinion about the death penalty, but this is not the place to share it. Suffice it to say that the Tookie Williams trial may have had many flaws. But even with all the alleged flaw, the process established with reasonable certainty that Williams committed the crimes he was executed for. No comparable process has ever established that the inmates in Guantanamo Bay have ever done the things that the US government thinks entitles it to imprison them there.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 05:56 am
I've been away from the mainstream news for a bit, and indeed from this thread.

What was that I saw in the Times of India this morning about Mr Rumsfeld's "parallel universes"?

Has the man completely flipped his lid? Has any comment been made on A2K about this?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 05:57 am
Due to various reasons I've an opinion similar to Steve's about death penalty.

However, I agree with Thomas that even that what happened today was according the law of the US and the local state.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 06:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Due to various reasons I've an opinion similar to Steve's about death penalty. However, I agree with Thomas that even that what happened today was according the law of the US and the local state.


It was indeed carried out in accordance with California law. But what was done was shaming.

Thomas of course the "unlawful combatants" in Gitmo are in legal no mans land. Thats why they put them there. They are beyond the reach of normal legal process let alone justice. The point is the Americans can do these things, no one can stop them and they give every appearance to the world outside of not caring. In my opinion places like Guantanamo are designed to keep the war on terror going, not to eradicate it.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 06:22 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Thomas of course the "unlawful combatants" in Gitmo are in legal no mans land. Thats why they put them there. They are beyond the reach of normal legal process let alone justice. The point is the Americans can do these things, no one can stop them and they give every appearance to the world outside of not caring. In my opinion places like Guantanamo are designed to keep the war on terror going, not to eradicate it.

As it happens I agree with all of this, but it is not the reason I argued for jury trials here. Justice for prisoners is important, but it is also important for the terror-fighters to know that it is actually terrorists they are fighting. Courts of law don't just have ethical value through serving justice. They also have epistemological value through checking facts. Without the thorough fact-checking courts provide, the terror fighters have little to operate on beyond hearsay and paranoia.
0 Replies
 
 

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